Hedshaker

Lol! Go for it my friend. Humour makes the world go round, not love.... or is that enthusiam. Not sure.....

Orbit

Hedshaker

Nah................ forget all that bullshit that's been indoctrinated into you.

There was no fall. Come on dude, you're far to intellingent for that nonsense. Get with the program.

There's no free will because we are who we are and we know what we know at the moment. We learn what we learn and we live how we live and we only have forsight after the event.

With the luxury of hindsight we would do everything different. You know it and I know it.

Orbit

jdlongmire

O-man, you should know that appeals to my intelligence would bear empty fruit.

My intelligence is not my mainstay, otherwise I would flounder, indeed.

I do agree that hindsight would be great. Unfortunately that is not reality.

Reality is that the world and mankind in general are really crappy to one another and reject holiness for worldliness. Me included.

I have struggled against indoctrination by the world all my life. Boy, have I failed in some BIG ways! Go read Ecclesiates sometimes for a glimpse of who I feel a spiritual resemblance to...

I have actually asked myself many times (today, in fact) what I thought it would take to "turn me away" and I can honestly say:

There is nothing.

That is a very strange thought for me. I have really been struggling with postmodernism some and I believe the Lord has lead me here for, believe it or not, edification...

I have mentioned before that I would probably really enjoy the company of many of the folk here, you, blt, brettc (if I got a few drinks in him), biff, diana and Rene -"TomboyMom", included, but that does not (pardon me) fundamentally change who I am or what I believe. You guys are a challenge, smart, educated, erudite, but I am convinced of my faith and my doctrine as firmly as you are of yours (actually I hope ya'll are a bit less, but I don't think so). Christ was known as a friend of sinners. I can only hope this sinner can be as good a friend to Infidels...

(Is that really your website?)

Jobar

Jobar paraphrasing Epicurus jdlongmire

And my present comments in black.

Let's re-state Epicurus' conundrum thusly:

Ok, I will reply.

Is God willing to prevent damnation, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

He is able.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

He is willing.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh damnation?

Mankind's rejection of their destiny and disobedience.

So men are more powerful than God? Our rejection and disobedience is beyond God's ability to overcome, or uncreate, or simply ignore?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Again, He is willing and able. Are you willing and able to obey?

Obey who? Words all come from men, jd. Are you willing to say that you hear or otherwise perceive words directly from God? Given that you know men- including you- are fallible, and prone to hallucinations, how can you be so sure of your beliefs as to obey anything unquestioningly, lacking physical evidence?

I think that the Calvinists are firmly impaled on the horn of God's malevolence.

I think atheists are cases in point for Calvinism.

And I think that Calvinists are proof that religion is the evil which wears a mask of good.

jdlongmire

why? I don't judge you any more than I judge myself. I just think that atheists proof Biblical truth. just like the whole world does, me included...I still sin, but I do not reject God or am hostile to Him...I am not hostile to you?

am I?

(btw: I was a handyman myself, once upon a time...)

Jobar

jd, I shouldn't single out Calvinists- I think that any religion that preaches the worthlessness or the damnation of mankind, for any reason, is evil. Lots and lots of non-Calvinists do that.

The point I really want to make is that you have no answer to Epicurus' dilemma. You go on about the power and the mercy of God, yet you maintain that God still sends people to Hell.

If you were a Universalist, or denied that Hell even exists, I might find fault with your belief, but I wouldn't necessarily call it evil. As it stands though, I think the damage done to individuals and to the entire human race by such hateful and self-despising doctrines fully justify me labelling them evil. Jesus said that you should love your neighbor as yourself, and that's a pretty good basis for an ethical code- unless you hate and despise yourself, and consider yourself only worthy of Hell.

jdlongmire

jobar, that is my point, if Hell does exist (and I think it does), then Mankind sends themselves there. God simply provides an environment suited to the offense.

Does that mean my pastor would preach that you, jobar, are going to Hell? Absolutely not! He should take a look at his own plank first! Our first response as Christians and ministers should be about exhibiting Christ's loving example to all the world.

Self loathing is a sin. One should love oneself as a representative of God's creation and as the temple of the Holy Spirit. I do despise my sin, but put it behind, knowing I'm ultimately forgiven through Christ's sacrifice.

Chili

Please don't love me because you stink and I can smell the smoke of burning sulpher on you.

Do you plan to go to heaven while you are a sinner or do you want to die first like the rest of us?

jdlongmire

really? *sniff* Oh! That's the chili I had for lunch...pardon me, should of had some Beano, first...

sinner born, sinner die and, but for the grace of God, sinner forever!

g'night!

Hedshaker

It's my own page on that site, Electronicscene where I house the music I produce. Unfortunately you have to be a member to download the music at the moment because their servers couldn't handle the bandwidth. That may change in the future.

But yes, the page was designed by me.

<shamless plug> Thanks for showing interest </shamless plug>

:thumbs:

</end off topic side chat> :Cheeky:

Orbit