Cheerful Charlie

That was not his point, Mr. Strawman. His claim was that by denying God exists, atheists have no morality as supposedly, all morality comes from God.

Which is untrue. As God can be proven not to exist, thustghisclkaimis obviously false. We all must get our morality from sources other than a non-existent God. To claim we atheists have no morals thus is bigotry,and just plain wrong.

It is rational and moral to hate genocide, mass murder and torture. It is not rational to support such things simply because that Nice Mr. Reagan says he likes religion and believes in God and supports the ex-Somoza guards, the genocidal Rios Montt of Guatamala, the continuing horrors of Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot and the Indonesian army in EastTimur.
Why did Reagan, the GOP members of House and Senateand GOP voters support these genocides, torture and mass murder. Because it was convenient.Them Mayan indians MIGHT be commies! Especially the women and children! For our anti-commie convenience, kill 'em! Especially the women and children, they are very, very dangerous, don't you know!

Why did Bush (who talks to God) lie us into a war in Iraq? He told writer of his ghost written book Mickey Hershovitz why. Invading Iraq would win him "political capitol" with high war president ratings he could strut around in Washington and do whatever he pleased and the Democrats could do nothing to stop him.

Convenience.

Why did Reagan sell illegal weapons to our worst enemy then, Ayatollah Khomeini? To keep money flowing to an illegal war in Nicaragua.

Convenience. The religious right loved Reagan despite that.
You love that "convenience" strawman don't you?


I show American christianity is a big moral failure and has been since Nixon. It sure was a convenient thing to use, religion, as a way to get elected so mass murder, torture and genocide could be supported. Convenience! That word again!

Your rant is falling a bit flat and your word games don't work well, Roger. I criticize American christianity because it richly deserves it. It is the biggest moral failure imaginable possible, excepting the Christian version, positive Christianity Nazi Germany created for its convenience, despite its pretensions and arrogant claims to be the only font of moral behavior. But it doesn't actually do morality, does it?

If Wombles commit mass murder, support mass murder,torture and genocide as convenient political policy and a religion that they thinks allows them to claim to be the only moral beings in existence, they deserve hatred for their policies and arrogant bigotry.

This is why I despise christianity in a nut shell.

Cheerful Charlie

Chris Weimer

Charlie,

Roger isn't even from the US. What are you talking about?

Cheerful Charlie

Sure, religion isn't about morality and opposing a government that supports genocidal regimes, mass torture, mass murder and oppression. Its about voter guides in church. "Homosexual agenda gonna git your Momma!Vote straight GOP! Here is your voter guide. Ignore the mass murders in Chile, Nicarugua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iraq, and keep voting GOP!"

Why, it is ridiculous to expect churches to live up to their claims to be the only fount of morality in this Christian nation!

Why we just have to ignore anybody who says otherwise. This is how itworks,see? The churches support any evilolicy las long as a GOP creep is for itand pretends to be religious. We should not challenge this. It is how things work, you see?


He should cease his bigotry against atheists. Claiming atheists have no morals. He should quit his religion because it is wrong, false and God is provably impossible, see the thread, "Omnigenesis" for my proof.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=173738

All Christians should arise and demand their cults, er... churches oppose futher Reaganesque support for evil regimes like Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Rios Montt, D'Aubisson, Pinochet and others. Fail this and get the criticism christianty richly deserves for supporting evils like 500,000 dead Iraqi children, killed by our callous sanctions.

How many mass murderers does Christianity in America get to support before we judge American Christianity supports genocide and mass murder, and as a general rule is is absolutely irrational and totally immoral??

No, its is easier to ignore me, isn't it? No need to try to change anything.
"We're Christians, see?"


Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

His empty bigotry and his rhetorical games and attacks on atheists.
Here in America, it isn't the Atheists that have been the problem since Nixon lied his way into office pitching to the religious "Silent Majority".

He bitterly complains how England is no longer Christian and rants about atheists. But look here in America, the most avowedly and aggressively Christian nation among the industrialized nations. Here we see, Christianity is the problem.

I am sure most English reading these posts are very happy NOT to have the sort of Christianity of America in England and the evil policies the US has supported under Reagan Bush, Clinton and Bush. Thatcher was enough for most.

CC

Cheerful Charlie

I dunno about that. God directly commands us in the Bible to be righteous. To not oppress the weak and powerless, widows and orphans.
The poor and helpless. To hate evil and not do evil. To not accept wickeness and to fight the wicked. God directly commends we be just and merciful. Thatwe love our fellow man.

Some people here greatly object to sorting out verses that show God is not as claimed, good and righteous, merciful and just. They want a different set of verses to be "cherry picked".

Why bitch if given the verses commanding righteousness and hateand opposition for wickedness, we have to consider the massive wickedness that has been mainstream American Christianity?

I was not the one attacking atheists as having no morality. Onllya penchnat for "convenience" And no morality as I do not believe in God,the allegded fount of all morality. Unless you look at the verses where he was anything but that. I am certainly NOT going to shy away from a counter attack when these peopel do that. Roger and Riverside.

Rather then, IIDB should ban all attacks on Atheist morals of that sort.
I personally resent and hate that and will at all times that attack on atheist morals is allowed unload big time on that sort of bigotry, and if that includes pointing out that for 35 years Christianity in America supported genocide, mass murder, torture and oppression, so be it. It is not us Atheists that have the proven lack of morality and this is the whole point of this, and why I bring it up. If Christians want to talk morality, let the, lead their religion in to actually supporting morality.
Not smearing atheists.

Any time some Christian bastard attacks atheists' morality like this I will with the utmost vigor, counter attack in this manner. I have been putting up with this for 40 effing years now and will not let this pass anymore.

Roger has a long history of this sort of atheist baiting on the net. I resent it. I will not let it pass. If the theist throws out aspersions on atheist morals, expect the brutal facts of the past 36 years of history of Christianity's moral failure in America to swiftly follow. We atheists are not the ones with the proven deep moral problems. This is not something far
away and long ago, a lot of these GOP bastards still hold office despite these things thanks to morality free Christian voters, who think a claim to religion, conservatism, and homophobia is all you need to be moral.

No more atheist baiting please, no more claims atheists cannot be moral, or are not moral.

Not-so-Cheerful Charlie

Chris Weimer

Religion isn't about any of those things. I've never voted for the GOP. Ever.

No, I don't see. I think you're quasi-deluded and desperately want something to blame the incompetency of these leaders on, and religion is your scapegoat because you happen to disagree with their premise.

You haven't proven anything. That's pathetic. And he isn't exactly claiming atheists have no morals, as we've talked numerous times via email and other messaging. I know Riverwind - he's not as you think. It's your bigotry that draws the worst in him, and I'm trying to calm him down.

Yes, I agree. Supporting brutal dictators is wrong. I don't think RW ever said otherwise.

Why are you lumping all Christians together? Are you by virtue of you being human automatically grouped with other humans like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao? Why are you arbitrarily drawing the boundaries at religion?

I can't speak for RW, as I think he's American, but I know for sure that Roger is British.

I'm not Christian.

Riverwind

I've never seen a thread closed before when good discussion is happening. Transferred to another forum, perhaps, but not closed. Perhaps atheists don't like to critically examine, in-depth, their own deeply held beliefs because then they'd be open to the same types of criticism that Christians constantly receive.

Of course, "Cheerful" Charlie was completly missing the point in the originating thread, as I was not saying that atheists have no morals. I suspect he simply has not ever thought deeply about the source of his morals and why he believes his set of morals should be followed by everyone else and how he has the right to think anyone should follow his set of subjective morality.

He can dislike mass killing and murder, but from his perspective, why else should it really matter? Is someone going to punish his generalized Christian society after death for their "immorality"? I wonder if some have the intellectual capacity, perhaps, and integrity to truly realize and understand their freedom from "morality" as an atheist / agnostic. Perhaps as he lives his life offline, he'll decide to take a break from criticizing others and turn his thoughts inwards towards understanding his own "morality", where it comes from, and why it matters. Perhaps the "morals" he's adopted merely come from the Judeo-Christian society that has always surrounded him and allowed him to take on the beliefs that mass-murder and genocide is wrong.

I've got plenty more to say on the issue, and I think people in this forum are interested because replies are always forthcoming, but I certainly don't mind if the discussion is moved to a more appropriate forum. Of course, it may not be worthwhile if Charlie cannot show a better understanding of the arguments at play here, but I do wish him luck in any potential endeavor to stop criticising religion and turn his criticism inward upon his own beliefs (remembering that he strongly attacked and denounced my religion before I focused on his beliefs).

Spanky

What the suck are you talking about? Atheists don't have beliefs! It really is simple, atheists have NO beliefs. You have theism, we are without theism. NO BELIEFS. As far as why the thread was closed was not because we don't like being open to criticism, but because that thread turned into a flame war. So, it was not "good discussion" on anyones part. Sometimes threads are closed so the people can just step back and mature a little!
And by the way, why are you posting in this thread in regards to that thread? Is what you have to say REALLY that important? I think not. I remember I got into a little spat with someone, the moderators split the thread, and , by the time I got back (from my vacation) that thread was closed and the person I was bickering with had the last word. Did I like that? No. But I didn't go into another thread because I felt what I had to say was important.
Nonetheless, maybe they will reopen that thread. In the mean while, this thread is a split (I guess that I unconsciously created) from another thread and is meant to discuss something other than that temporarily closed thread.

Where's my smallest violin in the world smiley?:huh:

Toto

It was closed temporarily pending review.

Your patronizing and insulting comments have no place in this forum. At times, it seems that atheists spend entirely too much time critically examining indepth their morals and beliefs. You will find an entire forum here on Moral Foundations and Principles, where I invite you to take your concerns and have your arguments deconstructed. There are atheist philosophers who have made careers out of this sort of study.

We advise you to refrain from projecting your own thoughts onto someone else or assuming that you can read his mind.

Or perhaps the idea that mass murder and genocide are wrong can be derived from basic principles like the golden rule, and there is nothing in Judeo or Christian history or theology that rules out mass murder or genocide in any case. As Archbishop Arnaud said, Kill them all, God will know his own.

Not replies, flames.

Feel free to start a new thread in that more appropriate forum.

If CC is not up to the task, there are a number of others who will take up the slack. I can assure you that you are not raising arguments that have not been heard and refuted many times before.

You might want to all review the forum rules first, and try to avoid personal insults and overgeneralizations.

Any further digression here can get this thread locked and split.

Toto

:boohoo: