Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-10-2010, 09:56 PM

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

After examining the NT and Church writings I have found more significant information that shows that Jesus believers of antiquity did not worship men as Gods and abhorred the practice where people worshiped men as Gods.

In effect, HJ would not have been worshiped as a God if he was known to be a mere man who lived in the region of Galilee for about thirty years.

In the Canonical NT, the Sacred Scriptures, it can be found in Acts of the Apostles where people attempted to deify Saul/Paul and Barnabas.

Saul/Paul and Barnabas were called Gods in the likeness of men.

Saul/ Paul had just caused a crippled man who had never walked before in his life to be instantly healed very similar to Jesus in his stories where he also instantly cured the crippled.

Saul/Paul should therefore expect people to worship him as a God just as he Saul/Paul worshiped Jesus as a God.

But Saul/Paul and Barnabas knew they were just mere men and became infuriated, shredding their garments, and pleaded with the people to desist from deifying them.

Acts 14:8-15 -

Quote:

8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:

9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet.

And he leaped and walked.

11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things?

We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein...

This story in Acts completely destroys the theory that embellishments about the miraculous deeds of HJ was the criteria for his deification by Jesus believers.

The embellishments are irrelevant. Jesus must be known to be a God before Jesus believers would have worshiped him as a God.

So based on Acts of the Apostles, Saul/Paul and Barnabas would not have deified HJ once they knew he was just a mere man with like passions of a man who lived for thirty years in Galillee.

It would be completely contrary for Jesus believers to vilify others as evil who worshiped men as Gods while at the same time worship HJ as God claiming he has the power to forgive the sins of mankind and even asking Jews to abandon the LAWS OF GOD including circumcision.

It is now clear that the Jesus of the NT was regarded and presented as a God, a mythological entity.

HJ is irrelevant.

HJ would not have been worshiped as a God.

HJ could not save mankind from sin.

HJ could not be raised from the dead.

The HJ is confirmed to be a most SENSELESS proposition.

CroMagnon · 02-11-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

And you can not dismiss (of course you can... why not?) "enemy" accounts of the followers of Christ, Chrestus, or whoever... such as Tacitus and Josephus.

Regarding Chrestus.

I've seen it claimed several times that the "Chrestus" reference in Suetonius could be a reference to followers of Serapis (Osiris-Apis) in Rome. That Chrestus isn't necessarily "The Christ" is a given, but what is the argument for the Serapis-interpretation?

There is a letter from Hadrian where the following is stated:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hadrian

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle.

Here the "christians" are mentioned, not "chrestians". So why would Suetonius call Serapis "Chrestus"?

New member :wave:

ApostateAbe · 02-11-2010, 05:26 PM

Hello, new member, welcome to the Twilight Zone.

Toto · 02-11-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CroMagnon

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

And you can not dismiss (of course you can... why not?) "enemy" accounts of the followers of Christ, Chrestus, or whoever... such as Tacitus and Josephus.

Regarding Chrestus.

I've seen it claimed several times that the "Chrestus" reference in Suetonius could be a reference to followers of Serapis (Osiris-Apis) in Rome. That Chrestus isn't necessarily "The Christ" is a given, but what is the argument for the Serapis-interpretation?

There is a letter from Hadrian where the following is stated:

...

Welcome, CroMagnon.

This is a perennial topic here. There is an old thread that will give you a good start: The Mithras ~ Chrestos ~ Vatican connection split from Non-Jesus people, & Serapis

In short, the Hadrian letter is not what is might appear at first, and is often misinterpreted. Which may be typical of much of the historical material related to early Christianity.

mountainman · 02-14-2010, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by CroMagnon

There is a letter from Hadrian where the following is stated:

In short, the Hadrian letter is not what is might appear at first, and is often misinterpreted. Which may be typical of much of the historical material related to early Christianity.

The letter is a common forgery, part of a package of forged documents which have been tendered along with the Historia Augusta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

Bogus documents and authorities

A peculiarity of the work is its inclusion of a large number of purportedly authentic documents such as extracts from Senate proceedings and letters written by imperial personages. Records like these are quite distinct from the rhetorical speeches often inserted by ancient historians – it was accepted practice for the writer to invent these himself – and on the few occasions when historians (such as Sallust in his work on Catiline or Suetonius in his Twelve Caesars) include such documents, they have generally been regarded as genuine; but almost all those found in the Historia Augusta have been rejected as fabrications, partly on stylistic grounds, partly because they refer to military titles or points of administrative organisation which are otherwise unrecorded until long after the purported date, or for other suspicious content. The History moreover cites dozens of otherwise unrecorded historians, biographers, letter-writers, knowledgeable friends of the writers, and so on, most of whom must be regarded as figments of the author's fertile and fraudulent imagination.

arnoldo · 02-14-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

After examining the NT and Church writings I have found more significant information that shows that Jesus believers of antiquity did not worship men as Gods and abhorred the practice where people worshiped men as Gods.

In effect, HJ would not have been worshiped as a God if he was known to be a mere man who lived in the region of Galilee for about thirty years..

That's why He was crucified, because He was judged to be a man and not a G-d.

aa5874 · 02-14-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

After examining the NT and Church writings I have found more significant information that shows that Jesus believers of antiquity did not worship men as Gods and abhorred the practice where people worshiped men as Gods.

In effect, HJ would not have been worshiped as a God if he was known to be a mere man who lived in the region of Galilee for about thirty years..

That's why He was crucified, because He was judged to be a man and not a G-d.

So, you are esentially claiming that virtually everything about Jesus are lies and that his disciples continued the practice of lying about their master and propagated that Jesus was a God knowing ful well he was judged to be a man.

Jesus was not the offspring of the Holy Ghost, was not tempted on the pinnacle of the Temple by the Devil, did not instantly heal incurable diseases, did not destroy a plant by cursing it, did not walk on water, did not transfigure, resurrect and ascend through the clouds.

Jesus was executed judged to be a liar.

Now, if your claim is true that Jesus was crucified because he was judged to be a man, and not G-D, please tell me how MANY disciples were immediately executed for propagating that Jesus was G-D fully well knowing he was judged a man.

HJ is a most Senseless proposition. Once Jesus was judged to be A MAN and executed for his lies then the Jesus story as is found canonised is done. The Jesus story has collasped. There is no good news.

In the very same NT that declare Jesus crucified also claimed his disciples ran away when he was arrested and that Peter denied ever knowing JESUS.

There is no Gospel story with HJ.

But we have a Gospel story. Well, it is because of MJ.

CroMagnon · 02-15-2010, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Welcome, CroMagnon.

This is a perennial topic here. There is an old thread that will give you a good start:

Thanks for the welcome, and for the thread tip Toto.

aa5874 · 02-16-2010, 08:05 PM

The HJ is a most Senseless proposition.

The more I examine the NT and Church writings the more it becomes overwhelmingly clear that the HJ is most irrational.

I have already shown passages in Acts 14 where it is written that Saul/Paul and Barnabas refused to be worshiped as God. I have already shown passages from "On the Embassy to Gaius" where it is written that of all the nations only the Jews did not worship Gaius as a God.

But, Justin Martyr will tell us that it is the Devil who is control of men who call themselves Gods.

"First Apology"

Quote:

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods.....

See http://www.earlychristianswritings.com

It is all over for HJ. If Jesus was known, believed or intended to be only a man and was worshiped as a God, then he would have been of the Devil.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. HJers are in effect claiming that HJ was of the DEVIL once he was known, believed or intended to be a man but still worshiped as a God which is quite contrary to the abundance of evidence.

HJ is NOT a solution. HJ is a massive problem.

Based on the abundance of evidence in the NT, Church and Apocryphal writings, Jesus was either (1) an actual God or (2) just a story that was believed to be true.

Only position (2) can be maintained from the abundance of evidence.

The theory that Jesus was just a story that was believed to be true is far more probable than for people to have known and lived with Jesus knowing full well that he was a man and then worshiped him as God contrary their own beliefs and then were killed, beaten and jailed for their very lies.

ApostateAbe · 02-16-2010, 08:09 PM

aa5874, do you ever visualize your self as a lot like an urban street preacher, except you are on the Internet, or is it just me?

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02-11-2010, 05:26 PM	#653
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Hello, new member, welcome to the Twilight Zone.

02-16-2010, 08:09 PM	#660
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	aa5874, do you ever visualize your self as a lot like an urban street preacher, except you are on the Internet, or is it just me?

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