Toto

So it appears that Durant read "as one untimely born" as referring to one born too late to know Jesus - instead of realizing that it was a Victorian expression for one born too early - a miscarriage, or abortion.

This seems a clear indication that Durant was not a specialist whose opinion must be treated with deference on this matter.

Will this put an end to Layman quoting Durant on the historicity of Jesus?

Vorkosigan

I just can't resist. The silliness of this is manifold. For example:

...their flight after Jesus' arrest...

Of course. If they had been arrested with Jesus, they couldn't of founded Christianity. So they had to be portrayed as fleeing, because the Romans would certainly have whacked them as well.

..Peter's denial,...

the purest literary invention.

[]...the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee...[/i]

Cut me a break! Right out of the OT.

Vorkosigan

spin

No.


spin

lpetrich

However, Will Drurant had not listed those "tests of authenticity" that those "Higher Critics" had allegedly used, so we have to go with what he claims.

He uses the criterion of embarrassment, citing several less-than-flattering incidents. However, this criterion might indicate that Greek mythology, for example, is historical. Zeus's numerous love affairs, Hera causing trouble for several of his love children, Hercules killing his wife and children, Odysseus's men being whimpering cowards, Athena tossing aside a flute after discovering that playing it made her cheeks puff up, Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite bribing Paris and him accepting Aphrodite's bribe: the love of the most beautiful woman in the world, Achilles dodging a draft by dressing as a woman, various deities being very vindictive, etc. Some vindictiveness stories:

When the hunter Actaeon saw Artemis bathing in a small lake, Artemis turned him into a deer, and he was attacked by his hounds.

When King Agamemnon killed one of her sacred deer, Artemis held up his Trojan-War expeditionary force until the king sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to her.

Apollo gave Cassandra the gift of prophecy, but when she refused to fall in love with him, Apollo cursed her by ensuring that nobody would believe her prophecies. Including the fall of Troy.

A woman named Arachne once claimed that he could weave tapestries at least as good as what the Olympians could do, and Athena challenged her to a weaving contest. Athena won, and turned Arachne into a spider.

spin

Embarrassment is certainly a value laden call, that you don't normally find historians making. It reflects only the "analyst's" opinion and helps to pacify the believer.


spin

capnkirk

Spin...It was Aretas IV, not Aretas III that ruled Damascus at the time of Paul's visit.

Aretas was the dynastic name of the Nabataean kings of Petra. The best-known Aretas was Aretas IV,. 9 B.C.–A.D. 49, ruler of S Palestine, most of Jordan, N Arabia, and Damascus. His daughter was married to Herod Antipas, who put her away in favor of Herodias. Aretas attacked (A.D. 36) Antipas and defeated him, but Rome took Antipas' part. Tiberius' death (A.D. 37) saved Aretas from the Roman army.

Please don't misunderstand, I am no Xtian. My personal studies have convinced me that there was a historical Jesus, that he was a (failed) Jewish messiah, and that Paul, a gentile who grew up in pagan Tarsus, via his 'experience' on the Damascus Road invented Xtianity by infusing Jesus' mission with the properties of the dying/resurrected god Attis, thus came into conflict with James and the Jerusalem 'church', was thrown out, but continued his ministry to the gentiles. In a very real sense, Paul's Damascus Road experience represented Jesus' conversion to Xtianity, not Paul's.

For an exhaustive examination of this position, see THE MYTHMAKER: PAUL AND THE INVENTION OF CHRISTIANITY by Hyam Maccoby, 1986 Harper & Row.

Vinnie

Good thing you clarified! Surely your point of view holds much more weight now!

Cute sentiments. Do they help pacify mythicists making absurd statements? Who are you to speak for what historians do or do not do? Cite some bona fide historians dismissing the embarrassment criterion or a variation of it or the basic principles behind it. By all means, Spin.

Vinnie

Hieronymus

It's Heracles meaning Glory of Hera. He was named Heracles to try to pacify Hera who was pissed that Zeus couldn't keep his dick in his pants. Hercules is Latin and from Roman mythology. Same person, same story, but it irks me to see the Greek and Roman names mixed.

spin

And Vitellius -- 36-39 -- was the Roman governor of Syria living in Damascus at the time of Anipas's defeat. Petronius -- 39-42 -- was there during the reign of Caligula. Cnaeus Vibius Marcus -- 42-44 followed him during the reign of Claudius (AJ 19.7.2). Then, also appointed by Claudius, there was a Cassius Longinus (not the famous one) who followed -- 44-49, then Ummidius Quadratus -- 49-54 --, also under Claudius (AJ 20.6.2).

When exactly would you think Aretas IV had control of Syria?

(And it's a good thing you're not interested in history, Vinnie.)


spin

Toto

We're hashing out the reign of Aretas IV in this thread. Feel free to join in.