Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-21-2005, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Of what probative value are such feelings? The implication suggested is not there.

Do you not agree that the passage is ambiguous at best? The passage does imply that to some readers.

Quote:

. . .

Sure it's clear that Paul traveled to the extreme west. Which at the very least means the extent of the city of Rome (cf. Acts 1 'to the ends of the earth'), and possibly as far as Spain.

Nothing is that clear. The "ends of the earth" is a reference to deutero-Isaiah

Behold, I have given you for a covenant of a race,
for a light of the Gentiles,
that you should be for salvation,
to the ends of the earth.

Is this midrash? Or did Paul read deutero-Isaiah and decide in fact to travel to the ends of the earth as he knew them? Do we really know how far he got?

Chris Weimer · 08-21-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Even if you don't buy the "we passages" as a literary convention (I won't debate it), why couldn't the author of Acts simply have incorporated some (possibly genuine) memoir in his own larger narrative?

The late date (pushing 100 CE at a minimum) and historical errors in Acts would seem tp preclude Luke's having been a companion of Paul, not to mention the fact that Luke's credibility as an authentic historian is completely shot by his own Gospel, as well as some supernatural elements in Acts.

We know that Luke copied freely from other sources for his Gospel (Mark, Q/Matthew, possibly others). I see no reason not to assume he did not do the same with Acts.

Why couldn't the "we" passages be fake? We have many impersonators back then, heck, even now, why couldn't the guy have been lying to give himself improper credit? This is especially augmented if it was a part of a cultic canon written for a very specific ecclesia. My current hypothesis is that Luke-Acts-Pastorals was one communities attempt to become the dominant Christianity, and was later usurped by the now Orthodox.

Chris Weimer · 08-21-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not sure that Theophilus is really a person, by the way. "Lover of God" could well be a form of address to the audience at large rather than a specific person.

I had a conversation at my old forum (now lost) where someone cited sources that these names were normal Greek names appropriated by Christians. Theodorus, Apollodorus (gift from God, Gift from Apollo, etc...). I believe his hypothesis was that Luke-Acts was a legal text for the Paul's trial.

Amaleq13 · 08-21-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I had a conversation at my old forum (now lost) where someone cited sources that these names were normal Greek names appropriated by Christians. Theodorus, Apollodorus (gift from God, Gift from Apollo, etc...). I believe his hypothesis was that Luke-Acts was a legal text for the Paul's trial.

Daniel Wallace makes the "trial brief" argument here but doesn't include the appropriated name idea.

Clivedurdle · 08-22-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

not only is Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem parallel to that of Paul, but also the events that take place when the two men reach the city, and after, are similar.�?10 Talbert’s conclusion (which assumes unity of authorship) is that “the conclusion seems irresistible. This architectonic pattern which has Gospel and Acts correspond in content and in sequence at many points is due to deliberate editorial activity by the author of Luke-Acts.

(From Wallace)

Has anyone asked if Jesus is a model of Paul? If there are parallels, which way do they go? Could Luke be later than Acts and based on Acts?

The dating discussion of Wallace states:

Quote:

The primitive nature of the theology. Terms such as “the Christ,�? “disciples,�? “the Way,�? and the reference to the first day of the week for the time when Christian met together to break bread, all imply primitiveness.

We really do seem to be peering into a "glass darkly" here! There are strong elements of midrash, and gnosticism, it may be various themes from bce that were later brought together and historicised.

Peter Kirby · 08-22-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Has anyone asked if Jesus is a model of Paul?

Yes, an Eastern Orthodox scholar whose name escapes me has compiled a list of parallels.

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

CJD · 08-22-2005, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Nothing is that clear. The "ends of the earth" is a reference to deutero-Isaiah

Behold, I have given you for a covenant of a race,
for a light of the Gentiles,
that you should be for salvation,
to the ends of the earth.

Is this midrash? Or did Paul read deutero-Isaiah and decide in fact to travel to the ends of the earth as he knew them? Do we really know how far he got?

This is great insight, Toto. I think it is the latter. While we do not know for certain how far he got, I definitely think that his understanding of YHWH's 'program' — once the Messiah had come — was to travel to the ends of the earth and bring in the Gentiles to covenant with Israel's God. It was his call (which would explain his tenacity as well).

Quote:

I don't think that if you accept Ellegard's thesis, that you then would necessarily believe that Paul went to Rome, although you would not find a problem then with Paul writing to a well-established church in Rome in the mid-first century.

Still, we must be careful about what we mean by "well-established." In Romans 16, there are at least five groups (house-churches) mentioned. Thus the Roman Christians, it seems to me, were at best a loose collection of house-churches, with a sum total of, say, thirty to one hundred believers in all.

Best,

CJD

andrewcriddle · 08-22-2005, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

(Putting 2 Tim back on the table may not do the trick, however, because it is possible, through a rather forced interpretation of 1:16-18, to accept the authenticity of 2 Tim yet locate its composition during Paul's imprisonment in Caesarea, before he reached Rome. This is one of the notable suggestions of J. A. T. Robinson.)

Stephen

How can the reference to Onesiphorus searching out Paul after arrival in Rome be plausibly explained other than by Paul being in Rome ?

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 08-22-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

Hang on! This states Paul was stoned, not beheaded!

This would appear to be referring to an incident before Paul's death.

Compare Acts 15:19 and 2 Corinthians 11:25.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 08-22-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Yes, an Eastern Orthodox scholar whose name escapes me has compiled a list of parallels.

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

See also 'The Purpose of Acts: Schneckenburger reconsidered' by A J Mattill pps 108-122 of 'Apostolic History and the Gospel Biblical and Historical Essays presented to F F Bruce' 1970

Andrew Criddle

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.