Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 08-24-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH

So... if you just burned your money instead, A) families like mine would starve,

This reasoning hasn't stopped them from shipping other types of jobs (like mine - software) OVERSEAS!

Wouldn't God provide for you in some other means? You've just hit upon (IMO) one of the major reasons people in that business aren't willing to truly examine the facts. Once it's your livelyhood, it's easier just to go along rather than have to change careers (low paying or not).

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B) Churches would close down,

Sounds like a good start....

Show us where in the bible it says you should establish expensive Church buildings which require a steady income and business plan....

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C) charities would take a hit. Doesn't sound like what God would want to me.

Do you see how "Gods will" happens to coincide with your will (see point A)?

And there are charities which aren't theist in nature. Quite a few actually. Our Harley Owners Group (HOG) raises 10s of thousands annually for the local childrens hospital. No prayer before the events.

wildernesse · 08-24-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Smartie

I'm just curious:

1) Would donating 10% of your income to the charitable organization of your choice be acceptable to the church if you just left a note in the collection plate?

I know some people who do give tithes--to charitable organizations of their choice. Often, they are not members of a church and so don't see the need to support a church--but still feel the need to give. Why leave a note? It's not like the church knows how much you should be giving. Or even if you give, if you don't put you name on an envelope.

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2) Are gifts to the church tax deductible in the same way gifts to Foster Parents Plan or the local soup kitchen would be?

Tithes are tax-deductible as far as I know.

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3) Who normally decides how churches spend the money collected?

Depends on the church and how it is governed. The church I grew up in was a member of the denomination--and while I believe there are denominational dues of a sort, most of the decisions are made by the church council (who are elected by church members).

wildernesse · 08-24-2004, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFisherman

I can't add much more to the comments already expressed, but as an anecdotal point:

I watched my wife's grandmother "fund" the church weekly for over 20 years. When she need help (she's pushing 100!) getting to the services (and give more $), noone could find a way to do it. So, in the end, why did she give at all? She didn't get any benefit from it - "bleed'em and dump'em."

I would say this is more a failing of that particular congregation than of the Church as a whole. And perhaps your grandmother did get a benefit from it--the benefit of knowing that she was giving to a cause she believed in.

Bright Life · 08-24-2004, 06:20 PM

When I was helping my aunt sort through her paperwork, I came across her "Faith Offering" envelopes. They had a worksheet on the back whereupon you put your gross monthly income, and use the handy advice included to calculate your 10%.

Not even the net income. They want 10% of the gross.

Gross, indeed.

BL

:banghead: :angry:

Triple Six · 08-24-2004, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH

So... if you just burned your money instead, A) families like mine would starve, B) Churches would close down, C) charities would take a hit. Doesn't sound like what God would want to me.

A) How about getting a real job?

B) Good

C) Religious charities would take a hit, which is good. Worthwhile secular charities, more concerned with alleviating real problems rather than preaching lies, would probably get that extra bit of the pie which is also good.

Tithing is a rip off pure and simple. I get particularly annoyed when I see people here (the average local worker gets around USD25 a week) being spivved for religious "offerings".

Gawen · 08-24-2004, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Guy

"Why does God give us arms? Why doesn't He just eliminate the need to pick anything up?"

Well, if God gave us no arms, we couldn't work very well and make much money. And we couldn't get our wallets out of our back pockets. And we'd look foolish in His sight with a mouthful of dollars when trying to sing to His Glory. We'd have to train chimps to do our book-keeping.

God was smart. Arms = money = more money for God.

lpetrich · 08-24-2004, 08:17 PM

Those church guys ought to pray for God to rain the money down on them, like manna from heaven.

Rational BAC · 08-24-2004, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Life

I was told by a pastor's son that the tithing mentioned in the bible really doesn't apply to churches today. It seems Isrealites were supposed to give ten percent to the Levite tribe, so they could dedicate their time to priestly duties. This included handling the governmental aspects of the tribes (laws, edicts, that sort of thing). This is comparable to the taxes we pay the government today. According to the preacher's son, the whole 10% thing is WAY OFF, and basically just extortion.

His dad wasn't supported by the church. He was a CARPENTER (

) during the week.

BL

Pretty much what I was going to say.

If all I had to pay was 10% of my income to receive social benefits, armed forces security benefit, and all the other government services we expect today---I would say that was a hell of a deal. Beats the heck out of the 38% some of us get charged today for the same services.

Tithing had some sort of legitimate purpose 2000 years ago. It is meaningless today. If you want to plop a $20 bill into the plate, go ahead and do it. If you want to plop $1 into the plate, go ahead and do that. If you want to tinkle a dime in there, go ahead and do that.

And if, in your heart of hearts, you decide to just pass the plate, fine with me.

And that should be fine with any Christian.

jdlongmire · 08-28-2004, 06:57 PM

posted in another thread, then remembered this one:

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Joshua Adams · 08-28-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

posted in another thread, then remembered this one:

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

I prefer Acts 4:32-5:11. Nothing like a little friendly persuasion.

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08-24-2004, 06:20 PM	#14
Bright Life Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,345	When I was helping my aunt sort through her paperwork, I came across her "Faith Offering" envelopes. They had a worksheet on the back whereupon you put your gross monthly income, and use the handy advice included to calculate your 10%. Not even the net income. They want 10% of the gross. Gross, indeed. BL :banghead: :angry:

08-24-2004, 08:17 PM	#17
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Those church guys ought to pray for God to rain the money down on them, like manna from heaven.

08-28-2004, 06:57 PM	#19
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	posted in another thread, then remembered this one: 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

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