Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EarlDoherty · 06-04-2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Wiley

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

It's only after the Diaspora (when things must have been understandably scattered and confused) that the earthers start appearing and claiming they have the true religion and everyone else is a "heretic".

Yet there is no evidence of any disagreement between "earthers" and "celestials", after the diaspora. No one ever claimed that "earthers" were the true religion and "celestial" were heretics. We lack evidence.

No we don't. A dispute of that nature is clearly evident in the letters of Ignatius (quite apart from the 'docetic' issue, though they're related) and that has been clearly laid out in Jesus: Neither God Nor Man and on the Vridar blog in my installment No. 12 in response to Ehrman. I'm sure you've taken the trouble to read at least one of them before coming on here and sounding off. No? I thought not.

The same dispute is also suggested in 1 John 4:1-4, also covered in both.

You wouldn't recognize evidence if you fell over it.

Earl Doherty

outhouse · 06-04-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No 'poor peasant Jew' involved.

this article mentions Borg, and it sounds like his work a long with Reed

http://followingjesus.org/leader/images_of_jesus.htm

Jesus as a peasant

Jesus was a Mediterranean Jewish peasant. As a member of the artisan class, his father Yosep (Joseph) and his family were on the lower end of the economic and social scale. Although a construction worker would be considered middle class today, there was no middle class in antiquity. In the first century, these frequently itinerant workers were generally peasants who had lost their land due to misfortune and indebtedness. Thus, on both the social and economic scales, they ranked below the peasants who still worked their own land.

Jesus as poor

Jesus was born into poverty. At his circumcision and presentation at the Temple in Jerusalem, his parents sacrificed a pigeon, the offering of the poor. Throughout his life, he identified with the poor and their plight.

Jesus and his family were not at the bottom of the ladder in his society, however. There were others worse off. The lowest level in the class structure were the expendables. These people existed because—despite the high mortality rates, disease, famine and war—the lower classes produced more people than the upper classes found it profitable to employ in an agrarian economy. If they found work at all, it was as day laborers. Otherwise, they wound up as beggars or bandits. In any event, their lives were brutal and short. Widows and orphans were also people totally without means, completely destitute and dependent on others for survival.

outhouse · 06-04-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No 'poor peasant Jew' involved.

maybe we can get over your ignorance here with another valid scholar

hows about a little crossan after borg??

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-co...V26N01_172.pdf

Jesus the Peasant

John Dominic Crossan

outhouse · 06-04-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Please stop repeating this. It's not based on fact.

The Romans did not deify a peasant, poverty stricken Jew. They accepted as a deity someone who descended from heaven, went through a human drama, died on a cross, and ROSE FROM THE DEAD. That's who they thought they were worshipping.

Your impoverished peasant is just a modern attempt to find a real person behind this mythical story. But no one worshiped that peasant as a god (except maybe for some 20th century Marxists.)

Thank you. It seems like everybody has refuted Outhouses' "Jesus must be real 'cause the Romans wouldn't worship a dead Jewish peasant" nonsense by now, and yet he still repeats it every day as somehow the fatal blow to the Christ Myth theory.

:deadhorse:

stop it, refute the message

ah but you cant so you attack me. its ok bud, I dont take it personal.

I just hope one day you take enough interest on the subject to actually study it.

James The Least · 06-04-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No 'poor peasant Jew' involved.

this article mentions Borg, and it sounds like his work a long with Reed

http://followingjesus.org/leader/images_of_jesus.htm

Jesus as a peasant

Jesus was a Mediterranean Jewish peasant. As a member of the artisan class, his father Yosep (Joseph) and his family were on the lower end of the economic and social scale. Although a construction worker would be considered middle class today, there was no middle class in antiquity. In the first century, these frequently itinerant workers were generally peasants who had lost their land due to misfortune and indebtedness. Thus, on both the social and economic scales, they ranked below the peasants who still worked their own land.

Jesus as poor

Jesus was born into poverty. At his circumcision and presentation at the Temple in Jerusalem, his parents sacrificed a pigeon, the offering of the poor. Throughout his life, he identified with the poor and their plight.

Jesus and his family were not at the bottom of the ladder in his society, however. There were others worse off. The lowest level in the class structure were the expendables. These people existed because—despite the high mortality rates, disease, famine and war—the lower classes produced more people than the upper classes found it profitable to employ in an agrarian economy. If they found work at all, it was as day laborers. Otherwise, they wound up as beggars or bandits. In any event, their lives were brutal and short. Widows and orphans were also people totally without means, completely destitute and dependent on others for survival.

21st century euhemerization. Interesting.

"Romans" worshipped the Resurrected Son of God who promised them immortality, not the "historical" dead Jewish peasant of modern scholarship.

Toto · 06-04-2012, 08:03 PM

Yes, there are scholars who think that Jesus was a romantic, revolutionary peasant.

And other scholars, working from the same lack of evidence, who think he must have been part of a royal dynasty.

outhouse · 06-04-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

this article mentions Borg, and it sounds like his work a long with Reed

http://followingjesus.org/leader/images_of_jesus.htm

Jesus as a peasant

Jesus was a Mediterranean Jewish peasant. As a member of the artisan class, his father Yosep (Joseph) and his family were on the lower end of the economic and social scale. Although a construction worker would be considered middle class today, there was no middle class in antiquity. In the first century, these frequently itinerant workers were generally peasants who had lost their land due to misfortune and indebtedness. Thus, on both the social and economic scales, they ranked below the peasants who still worked their own land.

Jesus as poor

Jesus was born into poverty. At his circumcision and presentation at the Temple in Jerusalem, his parents sacrificed a pigeon, the offering of the poor. Throughout his life, he identified with the poor and their plight.

Jesus and his family were not at the bottom of the ladder in his society, however. There were others worse off. The lowest level in the class structure were the expendables. These people existed because—despite the high mortality rates, disease, famine and war—the lower classes produced more people than the upper classes found it profitable to employ in an agrarian economy. If they found work at all, it was as day laborers. Otherwise, they wound up as beggars or bandits. In any event, their lives were brutal and short. Widows and orphans were also people totally without means, completely destitute and dependent on others for survival.

21st century euhemerization. Interesting.

"Romans" worshipped the Resurrected Son of God who promised them immortality, not the "historical" dead Jewish peasant of modern scholarship.

do you understand the term

jesus to christ???

or that biblical jesus is not historical jesus?

outhouse · 06-04-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, there are scholars who think that Jesus was a romantic, revolutionary peasant.

And other scholars, working from the same lack of evidence, who think he must have been part of a royal dynasty.

sources please

EarlDoherty · 06-04-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Wiley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

I wonder if both the mythicists and historicists are right, in the sense that Paul's religion itself is a mixture of two, previously independent religions: the celestial Christ religion and the earthly Jesus religion. .

Do we ever find evidence for a religion that had a solely celestial christ? Pauls theology requires an earthly man.

Read 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 and tell me where Paul's "earthly man" is in this picture. And I don't mean: how can we read him into it? Show me where the "physical second Adam (Christ) on earth" fits into Paul's pattern between the "physical earthly Adam" (of Genesis) and the "spiritual heavenly Christ" as laid out in the text. You importing him from the Gospels and claiming that Paul has him in mind won't be accepted.

And I'll give you a hint ahead of time. In ancient world thinking and cosmology, there was such a thing as the "heavenly man", so a simple appeal to the term "anthropos" won't work, especially when that man is described as made of spiritual stuff.

And one other hint. Don't fall into the mistranslation trap of 15:45b. Think carefully about the meaning of verse 45a and see what that tells you about 45b.

Of course, you probably don't know what I'm talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if you haven't even read Paul.

Earl Doherty

Toto · 06-04-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, there are scholars who think that Jesus was a romantic, revolutionary peasant.

And other scholars, working from the same lack of evidence, who think he must have been part of a royal dynasty.

sources please

Theories of the Historical Jesus

Jesus Dynasty

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06-04-2012, 08:03 PM	#396
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Yes, there are scholars who think that Jesus was a romantic, revolutionary peasant. And other scholars, working from the same lack of evidence, who think he must have been part of a royal dynasty.

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