How do you know he wasn't "inspiring" them to lie?

1 KINGS 22:
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Thessalonians 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Lance

Any Christian trying to tie the O/T to the new is a shameless fake at best. Talk to a knowledge Jewish person who knows what the actual langauge mean and you'll quickly find that all those O/T prophecies for Jesus don't mean squat.

For example, the infamous Isaiah passage that has been literally turned into a Christmas carol in reality was written after the fact and was actually about King Hezikiah. (I'll see if I can find the break-down Joseph did on this.)

Words have been changed, tense has been modified to wedgie Jesus into the O/T so they can point to it, jump up and down and squeal "fulfilled prophecy!"

Delilah:
If you want to talk about prophecy, how 'bout the revelation. I just read that book again and boy, is it silly.

For instance:
"And the stars of the heaven fell onto the Earth.." Rev 6:13

Fell onto the earth?! Makes it sound like they are little lights strung slightly above our heads.

If you want to talk about prophecy, how 'bout the revelation. I just read that book again and boy, is it silly.

LP:
Some have actually questioned the sanity of the writer of that book; I've personally wondered what drugs that guy was taking. Was he smoking some of that hemp? Or some of those poppies? Or eating some of those mushrooms? Or some of that moldy bread?

In fairness, some of the contents of that book are intended as a veiled allegory, such as Babylon being an allegory for Rome, but much of the contents of that book are rather difficult to interpret in that light.

Delilah:
For instance:
"And the stars of the heaven fell onto the Earth.." Rev 6:13

Fell onto the earth?! Makes it sound like they are little lights strung slightly above our heads.

LP:
Exactly right. The stars might *look* like they are tiny lights on a big ball that surrounds the Earth, but that's an artifact of perception that results from them being too far away; the stars, like the Sun and the Moon, will also seem to follow you around as you move.

Rev 6:13
And the Stars of Heaven fell to the Earth, as a Figtree throws
the early Figs of it, under a great wind shaken.

Source "Jesus of the Apocalypse", p.448. The year in question
is January, A.D. 50/51 and the Agrippa is the last of the line.
The bold print below is Thiering's interpretation.

In Jerusalem James the brother of Jesus allied with the
Samaritan high priest Ananias, associated with Jonathan Annas,
and they claimed authority in Judea without Agrippa.


I just threw this in because it was available to me. I have yet
to read the book. I need to read up on Josephus during
this same period of time. Thiering is hard for me to follow.
Besides, I want to investigate another story in "Antiquities"
about a robber that young Herod eliminated in about 50 b.c.e.

thanks, offa

Have you really studied ALL of the Prophecies in the Bible? I don't think so.


Here is an interesting story:

A man named Lee Strobel apparently became quite upset because his wife became a Christian. Strobel, an atheist set out to prove that the Bible was not the Word Of God and that Christianity was false. Ironically,
in doing so Strobel not only became a beleiver, he became a great advocate for Christianity. He has written several books -
" A Case For Christ" and "A Case For Faith"


There is a lesson to be learned here:

Even though Strobel an atheist, set out to prove that Christianity was false, he still put the effort in, through his extensive research, he not only became a beleiver, he wrote several books. He showed God that he really wanted to know the Truth.

Jesus Speaking:

Matthew 7: 7-8

" Ask, and it shall be given you;
seek, and ye shall find; knock,
and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth;
and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be
opened."

Go to:
http://www.bibledesk.com - click into hyperlink - Jesus

Laura:
Jesus Speaking:

Matthew 7: 7-8

" Ask, and it shall be given you;
seek, and ye shall find; knock,
and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth;
and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be
opened."

Jesus said a number of things:

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Lk. 14:26

Jesus said to Peter, "Get out of my sight, you Satan, you. You are dangerous to me because you are not thinking in God's terms, but in human terms." Mt. 16:23

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Mt. 3:7

"Damn you, Chorazin! Damn you, Bethsaida!...And you, Capernaum, you don't think you'll be exalted to heaven, do you? No, you'll go to Hell." Mt. 11:21-23

The fact is, Jesus could be mean and spiteful to his family, his disciples, and, especially, his fellow Jews. Virtually NO ONE got along with him. So, why should anyone worship such an angry, disturbed man?

rodahi

Lance

Laura: Here's the spin on Isaiah 9:6-7; shot down in flames... This is a question a Christian asked a native Jewish person on another board.

C:Can I ask you a question? Out of curiosity, How would you translate Isaiah 9:6-7?

J:AM provided two different translations - the YLT and the JPS - the former being a Christian translation and the latter being a Jewish translation (though, if it is the 1917 JPS, it made heavy use of the KJV, as stated in the Preface to the 1985 JPS edition). Neither is too far off, but I prefer my own. And, BTW C, these verses, Is 9:6-7, are Is 9:5-6 in the Hebrew Bible.

The passage is an example where Christian translators have taken some major liberties with the Source, and thereby actually changed the Divinely inspired words of Isaiah. First, here is a correct translation of the Is 9:5-6/[6-7] verses (I've indicated verse numbers as: # in Hebrew Bible/[# in Christian Bibles]; I have also included a few keywords in transliterated Hebrew in [] brackets immediately following the corresponding English words.):

(5/[6]) "For a child has been born ["yulad"] to us, a son given ["nittan"] to us, and the authority was placed ["vat'hee"] upon his shoulder, and his name was called ["vayikra"] Wondrous Adviser ["Pele Yo'ets" in Hebrew], Mighty G-d ["E-l Gibbor" in Hebrew], Everlasting Father ["Avi Ad" in Hebrew], Prince of Peace ["Sar Shalom" in Hebrew].

(6/[7]) To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end ["ein keitz"], on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the L-rd of Hosts shall accomplish this."

When you compare this with the KJV (and other popular Christian translations) you will find words that have been mistranslated, including the CHANGE OF TENSES from the PAST to the FUTURE. It is interesting to note that the KJV has correctly translated the very SAME words in other places in the Hebrew Bible. The word "yulad", ('has been born'), which appears in the Hebrew Bible 18 times, is properly translated in the KJV in the PAST tense at every other instance, e.g., at Gen 4:26, 10:21, 35:26, Judges 18:29.

The word "nittan", ('given'), which appears in the Hebrew Bible 16 times, is properly translated in the KJV in the PAST tense at every other instance, e.g., at Lev 19:20, Josh 24:33, Is 35:2. The word "vat'hee" ('and was placed'), which appears in the Hebrew Bible 86 times, is properly translated in the KJV at every other instance, e.g., at Is 5:25, 23:3, 29:11-13.

The word "vayikra", ('and was called'), which appears in the Hebrew Bible 215 times, is properly translated in the KJV at every other instance, e.g., at Is 21:8, 22:12, 36:13. And, the expression "ein keitz", ('without end'), which appears in the Hebrew Bible 5 times, is properly translated in the KJV at every other instance, e.g., at Is 2:7; Eccl 4:8. These are just a few examples, and there are more. The key question here would be: Why were the translations in Is 9:5-6[6-7] different from the other places?

Another problem with these two verses out of Isaiah 9 (in Christian Bibles) is that the name appears to be 'played up' or misapplied. The way the accolades in the first of the two verses are read makes it appear that what is talked about is G-d, His substance, and who He is. Actually, what it says there (according to the original Hebrew text) is that SOMEONE'S NAME is all of these things. What does this mean? If you examine Jewish names (and this is where it becomes so important that translators of the Hebrew Bible need to be intimately familiar with the nuances of the Hebrew language, Jewish
culture, customs, folklore, and tradition), you will discover that many Jewish names have G-d's name in them as well as a description and accolade of G-d. For example, the name Elijah is a compression of two names of G-d, "El" and "Yah", in the form "Eli+Yah+Hu", meaning, 'my L-rd is G-d'.

Likewise, names such as Tuvia (goodness of G-d), Joshua (G-d is salvation), Elisha (G-d is satisfaction), Eliezer (help of G-d), Gedaliah (Great G-d), Hananiah (Gracious G-d), and so on, fit that description. Now, the name 'Mighty G-d' belongs to ONLY ONE person in the Hebrew Bible - to Hezekiah.

Accordingly, this prophecy refers to Hezekiah, the righteous king who was born nine years prior to the ascension of his wicked father, King Ahaz, to the throne. Hezekiah assumed the authority or dominion of G-d, and he bent his shoulder to bear the yoke of Torah, the burden of the Holy One. Thus, these attributes characterize G-d's actions relating to Hezekiah, King of Judah. 'Wondrous', since G-d performed wonders in his day, such as the wonder of the sun going backwards when Hezekiah was cured of his illness.

'Advisor', (Hebrew word "yo'etz") is specifically used in reference to Hezekiah in 2 Chron 30:2. Also G-d's plan was successful for Hezekiah against Sanneheriv. 'Mighty G-d', because even though Sanneheriv approached Hezekiah with innumerable troops of warriors, Hezekiah prayed and G-d's mighty hand destroyed them (in miraculous fashion). 'Eternal Father', because of Hezekiah's merit, the Davidic dynasty was prolonged.

King Hezekiah was one of the most extraordinary personalities among the Jewish kings, about whom the Sages of the Talmud say that he had such an enormously towering character that he himself was worthy to be the Messiah. These verses in Isaiah 9 deal with the crisis that existed in Judea at that time, when the Assyrian king Sanneheriv wanted to destroy the remaining Jews in the land (see Isaiah 7).

Isaiah here responds to the messengers from Hezekiah, and sends back the message in which he says: "Don't worry, the Almighty will be with you, He will protect this House of David and nothing is going to happen to it; the promise that G-d made to David (see 2 Samuel 7:12-16) will be preserved." (a paraphrase of v. 6/[7]) So the nation that was standing in the shadow of death suddenly stood in a great light. The army of Sanneheriv, the king who previously exiled the northern tribes of Israel, comes and surrounds Jerusalem for the purpose of exiling the remainder of the nation. The Jewish nation turned to G-d and obeyed Hezekiah's order not to respond, and that night a miracle occurred. An angel came and slaughtered the entire Assyrian army, and the king was eventually assassinated by members of his own family (see 2 Chron 32:21).

I have been challenged in similar past discussions on this passage regarding the identification of Hezekiah as the subject of the prophecy in Is 9:5-6/[6-7]. So here is a little more insight as to why this is all about Hezekiah. Isaiah's 10th chapter provides the epilogue to the events
described in chapter 9. In these two chapters the prophet recounts how G-d saved King Hezekiah and his Kingdom of Judah from Sanneheriv's massive military attack. Prior to Hezekiah's siege, the Assyrian army had already successfully carried off the 9 tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
Now Assyria was positioned to exile the remaining Kingdom of Judah - the helpless remnant of the Jewish people who so desperately needed divine intervention. Isaiah recounts the marvelous events that uplifted a nation from dark despair to the ecstasy of a miraculous deliverance; the light of divine redemption had shone upon them. Thus, Isaiah begins the 9th chapter declaring, "The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light has shone upon them."

A careful juxtaposition of the language used in chapter 10 to the verses in chapter 9 clarifies that the verses in chapter 9 (5-6/[6-7]) relate to nothing other than the Almighty saving Hezekiah and his people from
Sanneheriv's warring army in the 7th century BCE. This looks better in a table format, but, since I don't know how to put a table into this post, I'll give you a verse-by-verse comparison (I've used relevant verse
fragments, put relevant words in CAPS, and indicated verse numbers of Christian Bibles
in [] brackets):

Is 9:3/[4] - For the YOKE of his BURDEN.
Is 10:27 - And it shall come to pass on that day, that his BURDEN shall be removed from upon your shoulder, and his YOKE from upon your neck, and the YOKE shall be destroyed .

Is 9:3/[4] - . the STAFF of his shoulder, the ROD of the one who oppressed them have You broken .
Is 10:5 - Woe to Assyria, the ROD of My anger and the STAFF in whose hands is My indignation
Is 10:24 - Assyria, with a ROD may he smite you, and his STAFF may he bear over you as he did in Egypt.

Is 9:3/[4] - .as on the day of MIDIAN.
Is 10:26 - And the Master of Legions shall stir up a scourge against him, like the smiting of MIDIAN at the Rock of Oreb .

Is 9:5/[6] - . and his name was called . the MIGHTY G-D
Is 10:21 - The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the MIGHTY G-D .

OK, by now I hope you "get the drift" of how to read and interpret this passage. However, just in case you are still doubting me, let's look at a few additional "pointers" that explicitly connect Hezekiah to this
passage,

II kings 20:19 - Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah, Good is the Word of the L-rd which you have spoken. And he said, Is it not good, if peace and truth are in my days?

Now, here is what Isaiah foretells will be sometime in the near future,

Is 10:21-22 - (21) The remnant shall return ["she'ar yashuv" in Hebrew - the name of
Isaiah's 1st son], the remnant of Jacob [who was also called "Israel" - see next verse], to the Mighty G-d ["E-l Gibbor" in Hebrew; the expression used in Is 9:5/[6]].

(22) For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, still a remnant [of them] shall return ["she'ar yashuv"]; the destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

OK, now keeping vs. 21-22 above in mind, read II Chronicles 30 - a remnant from what was the Northern Kingdom of Israel returned to Judah, during the reign of Hezekiah (the name that means 'Mighty G-d', i.e., a synonym of "E-l Gibbor" in Hebrew) to celebrate the Passover.

Here's yet another "link" between Is 9:5/[6] and Hezekiah,

II Chron 32:2-3 -
(2) And when Hezekiah saw that Sennacherib had come, and that he intended to fight against Jerusalem, (3) And he took counsel ("va'yiva'ets" in Hebrew) with his princes and his mighty men to plug the waters of the springs which were outside the city; and they helped him.

The conjugated Hebrew verb "yiva'ets" (the leading "va-" just means 'and' and it also reverses the tense) has the root verb "ya'ats", from which comes the noun "yo'ets", which means 'counsellor' - as in 'Wondrous Consellor' of Is 9:5/[6].

And finally, for some "dessert", it is also interesting to note that the only other place in the Hebrew Bible where the expression, ". the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.", which appears at the end of v. 6/[7], is used is in Is 37:32, which is part of a passage - Is 37:31-35 - that describes the downfall of the Assyrian king and the miraculous victory of Hezekiah.

Thus, in summary, the Jewish perspective is that Isaiah 9 is about an event that has already taken place in Jewish history, which is the way the Hebrew text reads, and which is supported by historical evidence (there exists physical archaeological evidence that supports these events that took place in Judea). This is NOT a Messianic prophecy by any stretch of the imagination! Oh, and BTW, please don't try to play the "dual prophecy" card on me - this is an unbiblical invention of the Church created in order to help retro-fit Jesus into the Hebrew Bible.

It is very unfortunate that so many of the nuances and allusions of the text are lost in any translation process. And it is even more unfortunate that, on top of that, Christian translators have been bent on retro-fitting and force-fitting Jesus into the Hebrew Bible.

I hope that the above analysis helps you better understand the Jewish perspective on this passage. Please feel free to ask more questions, but note that I do not intend to "play this game" with every one of the alleged prophecies in the Christian's bag of tricks - they can all be dealt with in the same fashion and soundly debunked.

[This message has been edited by Lance (edited April 22, 2001).]

Lance

Laura: Lee Strobel is talked about quite a bit. Consider the pressure on the man...his wife is joining a cult and it plays heavily on wonderful little verses that advise the believer to "not be yoked" with the unbeliever.

Ironically my marriage is the same way. My wife is the perfect little Christian pre-school teacher. I mean no disrespect to her, but she knows no history and has no desire to learn any; she knows only the "good" parts of the bible, not the bad; and she has little interest in science. This is the ideal Christian that most churches love. Won't question, won't research, a nice sheep in the flock.

There just isn't evidence for or against enough to prove one way conclusively. I take the stance of Thomas Paine though, that outrageous claims require outrageous proof. Not a shred of which Christianity can deliver.

And it doesn't take a great intellect to be a great advocate for the cause...just great charisma and communications ability.

This is my own opinion:

The old testament stes a number of prophecies that are later made true with jesus birth and the new testament.This is what Christian say.

To me the old testament was writen by a group of guys who were having fun telling stories by the fire . But what happened? Someone or some people found this writings and started to follow them,. Of course the 'prophecies" were starting to be made true.

When Jesus arrives (wich in fact i think it was just someone who took the role of that prophecy) After that the trend continued.

This is just my opinion though