Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Quatermass · 11-06-2001, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman:


Where does Jesus say that the world will end before they die in Mark 9:1?

From the parallel in Mt 16:27,28 it appears that coming in glory is associated with the final judgement. Let the creative interpreting begin...

Layman · 11-06-2001, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quatermass:

From the parallel in Mt 16:27,28 it appears that coming in glory is associated with the final judgement. Let the creative interpreting begin...

That's odd. Using Matthew-written several years later--to interpret Mark's meaning. But nevertheless, both authors place these sayings in the same sequential order (somewhat unusual for Matthew-Mark). That is, both place it right before the transfiguration.

If Matthew was written in the 80s would its author have Jesus saying that the Kingdom would come before the death of the disciples? Of course, it's possible that either 1) the sayings of Jesus were so firmly established that not even a redactor like Matthew would remove them despite the embarassment, or 2) several of the disciples remained alive and expectant of Jesus' return even in the mid to late 80s. Most skeptics I know would rigorously deny either of these options.

Quatermass · 11-06-2001, 11:08 PM

How can you be sure that your interpretation is any different from the explanations given for other failed second coming predictions throughout church history?

There are problematic sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels that give the impression that he expected the divine end of human history in his or his followers� lifetimes. To ignore this is to overly simplify the problem.

Muad'Dib · 11-06-2001, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman:
I'm trying to gauge its "position" in Skeptic Culture.

FWIW, I have never even seen a copy of SAB. I read the OT using NRSV and NAS, and the NT in Greek (Aland, et al, 4th ed.).

Triple Six · 11-07-2001, 12:53 AM

I've never seen the SAB either.

I asume that it covers all of the Bible and therefore there will be a lot of comments in it. So given the small number of "doubtful" comments that Layman has come up with (and he hasn't argued against some of them convincingly) there must be an awful lot still left that are beyond dispute

And only one side is claiming 100% accuracy.

So tell me Layman, on the balance of probabilities, who is most likely right

Jack the Bodiless · 11-07-2001, 01:24 AM

Layman: the SAB is intended to be the definitive list of all known Biblical errors, contradictions, absurdities and so forth. And, yes, some are better than others: it would be incomplete if some were omitted, but the inclusion of the weaker ones does "dilute" the better ones. It is a common tactic for apologists to explain away a few easy ones and then dismiss the whole thing (as you are attempting to do).

I prefer to select groups of contradictions that strike at key aspects of Christian doctrine, such as SAB Contradiction 151, "Are we punished for the sins of others".

The "Second Coming" prophecies are a major problem for Christianity. Here's a selection from the SAB's "False Prophecies" section:

Quote:

Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Mt.16:28, 23:36, 24:34

Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming. Mt.26:64, Mk.14:62.

Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mk.9:1, 13:30

Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God. Lk.9:27

Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the lifetime of his listeners. Lk.21:32

Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. Jn.21:22

Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. Phil.4:5

Paul thought he would live to see the rapture. 1 Th.4:17

Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus returns. Of course this implies that he expected this to happen within their lifetimes. 1 Th.5:23

The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days" (Heb.1:2) and that Jesus would come "in a little while," and would "not tarry." Heb.10:37

James thought that Jesus would return soon. Jas.5:8

Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the "last times" and that "the end of all things is at hand." 1 Pet.1:20 ,.4:7

John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around. 1 Jn.2:18

John says that the antichrist was already present at the time 1 John was written. 1 Jn.4:3

John believes "the time is at hand," and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will "shortly come to pass." Rev.1:1, 3

Rev.1:7 says that "every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds."

John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come "quickly." Rev.3:11, 22:7, 12, 20

There are only three events that such passages could be referring to: the Resurrection, the establishment of the "Kingdom of God" by the Emperor Constantine, and the end of the world. Gospel prophecies might concievably be referring to the Resurrection, but not those from sources such as Paul, written later. And nobody alive then would have lived long enough to see the Roman Empire become Christian under Constantine.

(Edit: for those who haven't seen the SAB, it's at www.skepticsannotatedbible.com)

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Jack the Bodiless ]

3DChizl · 11-07-2001, 04:25 AM

SAB has a discussion board to make your case and Steve will change it if the case is made.

Echo · 11-07-2001, 08:23 AM

The only way out of the failed second coming prophecies in the bible is to assume that words and phrases such as ""soon", "very little while", "shortly", "Behold I come quickly"and "surely I come quickly" have some meaning other than their common meanings.

But if this is the case, how many other words and phrases are used differently than they are in common usage? Maybe if "soon" doesn't mean "soon", then "love" doesn't mean "love" in the bible, and "eternal" doesn't mean "eternal" and "noone comes to the father except by me" doesn't mean "noone".

The Guy · 11-07-2001, 08:27 AM

Quote:

From Layman:
That's odd. Using Matthew-written several years later--to interpret Mark's meaning. But nevertheless, both authors place these sayings in the same sequential order (somewhat unusual for Matthew-Mark). That is, both place it right before the transfiguration.
If Matthew was written in the 80s would its author have Jesus saying that the Kingdom would come before the death of the disciples? Of course, it's possible that either 1) the sayings of Jesus were so firmly established that not even a redactor like Matthew would remove them despite the embarassment, or 2) several of the disciples remained alive and expectant of Jesus' return even in the mid to late 80s. Most skeptics I know would rigorously deny either of these options.

What is your interpretation of Matt 24:27 & 28? Is he referring to the transfiguration there or not?

Quote:

From the NASB:
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels , and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

The transfiguration as described did not involve any angels, nor the judgment of the human race. If you saw a similar passage in a holy book that you did not believe in, would you not be inclined to believe that it was indeed a false prophecy?

Jebus · 11-07-2001, 08:51 AM

Take Mark 9:1 within the entire context of what Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God and it's clear he was conveying all over the place that the Kingdom of God was coming to Earth SOON. Those who came after him preached the exact same message.

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11-06-2001, 11:08 PM	#13
Quatermass Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 69	How can you be sure that your interpretation is any different from the explanations given for other failed second coming predictions throughout church history? There are problematic sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels that give the impression that he expected the divine end of human history in his or his followers� lifetimes. To ignore this is to overly simplify the problem.

11-07-2001, 12:53 AM	#15
Triple Six Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: formerly Lae, Papua New Guinea Posts: 1,867	I've never seen the SAB either. I asume that it covers all of the Bible and therefore there will be a lot of comments in it. So given the small number of "doubtful" comments that Layman has come up with (and he hasn't argued against some of them convincingly) there must be an awful lot still left that are beyond dispute And only one side is claiming 100% accuracy. So tell me Layman, on the balance of probabilities, who is most likely right

11-07-2001, 04:25 AM	#17
3DChizl Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: West Virginia Posts: 160	SAB has a discussion board to make your case and Steve will change it if the case is made.

11-07-2001, 08:23 AM	#18
Echo Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winter Park, Fl USA Posts: 411	The only way out of the failed second coming prophecies in the bible is to assume that words and phrases such as ""soon", "very little while", "shortly", "Behold I come quickly"and "surely I come quickly" have some meaning other than their common meanings. But if this is the case, how many other words and phrases are used differently than they are in common usage? Maybe if "soon" doesn't mean "soon", then "love" doesn't mean "love" in the bible, and "eternal" doesn't mean "eternal" and "noone comes to the father except by me" doesn't mean "noone".

11-07-2001, 08:51 AM	#20
Jebus Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 43	Take Mark 9:1 within the entire context of what Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God and it's clear he was conveying all over the place that the Kingdom of God was coming to Earth SOON. Those who came after him preached the exact same message.

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