We have only the texts that bear his name to prove he eixisted. We have only his word for it that he did anything he says he did. Who apart form Josephus admits he existed? And since you all are so dead certain that the Jesus bits are just made up out of whole cloth, how do you know the whole thing isn't just make up? Why should anyone beleive Josephus at all?

but historians do.

Do you really not know? Or is this a strawman?

How is that a strawman? Well, I don't like the sound of where he's going with this so it must be a logical fallacy... maybe it's one of those Ad Eminem attacks...

By the way, I don't know how we determine that Josephus existed, so how do we know that he did?



[This message has been edited by Eustace Scrubb (edited June 03, 2001).]

It is not certain that Josephus existed, but it is highly probable based on the available evidence. Whether or not Josephus existed, though, is not relevant to the question of Jesus' existence.

rodahi

Yes, yes, no doubt The Jewish War was written by another jew of the same name.

Michael

ahahaha a logical fallacy? How can it be a logical fallacy to ask for documentation? Just show the quotes of other people talking about him. Otherwise why assume he existed?

Highly probable based upon what evidence? YOu can't count his works because those are the one's in question. You cant' use the work in question to prove itself remember?

Well since you are so sure that the Jesus parts were made up by others, than apprently christians were in control of the only copies since there are no versions without the core passage; so a committe of Chrsitian redactors must have made up Josephus and his works.

They were just writting a long historical novel.

Too bad we don't have writing purportedly written by Jesus himself. Too bad we have only hearsay and no first-hand documentation by Jesus, whereas we do regarding Josephus. It's much easier to explain away hearsay than a first-hand, apparently well-informed and authentic account.

This may be Meta's silliest argument yet.

Perhaps Josephus was a pseudonym. But SOMEONE wrote the works attributed to him.

If you can't see the difference between that and Jesus, then you're truly lost.