You have a point. If you worship money.

CTME, I understand perfectly because I save most of my money the way you mention. However, like Layman said earlier, there are present and pressing needs which do not allow for saving of the type you menion (for me - or you - or the Church). Also, those mutual funds that you seem to think are so safe could come crashing down with the next Black Monday or Depression. It's just not a wise move for the Church considering they want that money safe to provide for those in need.

As for the ignorant Christian thing, all I will say is: Whatever... I know your style CTME, and it's every bit as twisted as you claim Christians are.

Ish

Ish, you make a good point on the twisted thing. However, my logic make perfect sense to Atheist. Atheists recognize that I use the same logic scheme as found in Christian Doctrine and the Bible.

This is why my Style scares you and other Christians, you recognize it as your God's logic and you know it truly doesn't make sense.

If I'm too harsh for you, maybe this will help...
I love you and wish you happiness. Does that help smooth my style? I also found that one in my local church. Some stranger at church loves me. Right!
My family is the only one that loves me and your family is the only one that loves you, period. Love is not found outside those bounds. If it is, it is a church, or a whore... same thing! Whoops, hope that wasn't too harsh for your tender ears!

I really do wish you well though, I know you have a long way to go before becoming an Atheist, but keep on this board it will get you there quicker.

Layman,

I worship compound interest, not money. Now, that is a powerful God. Here's my favorite Gospel song...

What a friend we have in In....terest.
It will make me rich one da....y.

Then I'll buy the local chur.....ches.
Turn them into bars for ga......ys.

I would have liked to stay on topic and remained serious, but you christians lost the argument and took it off into another direction.... AGAIN!

Layman - what's the scriptural reference
for this, and was it translated correctly
as "Reimbursing"?

Because in my mind (and many others, especially the IRS), there's a huge difference between "Reimbursement" and
"steady salary".

Also, here's an interesting viewpoint from
a former Pastor...

http://www.friktech.com/rel/ox.htm

Why is it that committed atheists think they understand the needs and obligations of churches? Or somehow feel they are in a position to instruct us on how to run an institute that they despise?

I don't care what a former pastor has to say about it Kosh. Would you care about the thousands of current pastors I could line up to talk about it?

Matthew 10:10/Luke 10:1-7:

Paul refers to this teaching in 1 Cor. 9:14:

And in 1 Timothy 5:18:

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited May 18, 2001).]

>Why is it that committed atheists think they >understand the needs and obligations of >churches? Or somehow feel they are in
>a position to instruct us on how to run an institute that they despise?

Ah, er, I guess it was all those years
I spent on the Church Council as an Elder.
What was I thinking? My mistake.


Matthew 10:10/Luke 10:1-7:

quote:

>After these things the Lord appointed >seventy others also, and sent them two by >two before his face into every city and >place ... Carry neither money bag, knapsack, >nor sandalrs; and greet no one along the >road... And remain in the same house, eating >and drinking such things as they give, for >the laborer is worhty of his wages.

I see nothing in here about supporting them
with a salary. Or with tithes. He's saying
that they should be put up by the people
they're preaching to. And there's nothing
here about establishing a church building
with a mortgage and "needs". QUite the opposite in fact.


Paul refers to this teaching in 1 Cor. 9:14:

quote:

>Do you not know that those who minister the >holy things eat of the things of the temple, >and those who serve at the altar partake of >the offersings of the altar? Even so the >Lord has commanded that those who preach the >gospels shold live from the gospel.

Is Paul quoting Jesus here? Doesn't seem like it. Looks like his own opinion to me.

And in 1 Timothy 5:18:
quote:

>Let the elders who rule well be counted >worthy of double honor, especially those who >labor in the word and doctrine. For the >Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox <while it treads out the grain," and "The >laborer is worthy of his wages."

Still waiting for that building quote
from Jesus...

"Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me!" - Waddo

He doesn't say to drive to work either. Oh my. Of course, he doesn't say not to drive to work. Hmmm.

The laborer is worthy of his wages.

There is nothing unChristian about paying the pastor (how else is the pastor supposed to eat, find housing, or send his kids to college?) or to pay rent for a place to meet.

Yer so cute when backed into a corner!

See, you're just not getting the gist of
this argument. We are not questioning whether
the Church (and the Pastor) has needs. We
are questioning whether they *should* have
those needs. We are questioning if it is
*appropriate* for them to have those needs.
We are questioning whether somebody should
expect to make a PAID CAREER out of preaching
the Gospel.

Here is your own quote from Mathew (the only
one you've managed to supply after claiming
that Jesus condones the *reimbursement* of
the clergy:

============================

After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before his face into every
city and place ... Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandalrs; and greet no one along the road... And
remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worhty of his wages.
==========================

Doesn't sound like he's telling these people
to live a "normal" life where you buy furniture, cars, get married, have kids
while collecting a salary for preaching
it in the same building every Sunday.
What I get from this is that they should
live off the charity (room and board only!)
of those willing to help them out while
they're preaching.

Hey, "Carry neither money bag...". Why would he
say that if he intended them to get paid?

But this one is something else:

"He doesn't say to drive to work either. Oh my. Of course, he doesn't say not to drive to work. "

Ok, so you're saying it's OK to collect
money for the Church because he didn't say
NOT to do it. Which means, that since he
didn't say "Don't go out to strip clubs
and get lap dances", Christians could do that
too?

Of course, there's a lot of things they don't
talk about NOT doing. But many of things
don't affect other people. Expecting them
to give you part of their money, that does
affect other people. As CMEZ pointed out,
it reduces their disposable income. It
reduces money to invest. Money is hard earned.
So once again, maybe you can point out
WHY PEOPLE SHOULD GIVE MONEY TO THE CHURCH
simply so that the pastor can have a nice
building and budget and pretty pews for
the Christians to sit in on Sunday when
there is no evidence to support that this
was Jesus intention? Why
should that money be spent on these things,
rather than helping the poor, the needy,
and the destitute. Don't try to sidetrack
the issue by claiming that the Church does
do that. The question is why doesn't it ALL
go for those needs. Why is it WASTED on things
that aren't necessary to do God's work?
(You don't have to meet in a big fancy building. You meet in your own houses.
You could meet in the park).
Don't try to point back to that pathetic
passage from Mathew, because it doesn't
support the huge infrastructure which the
Church has grown used to.

As you said earlier, "If you worship money".
I'm tired of hearing this crap just before
they pass out the offering plate. OK, show
us you <Christians> don't worship money.
Do as the original desciples did. Give up
your jobs, go out and preach the gospel
to the world, dont' worry about material
things or MONEY. Do only what you need to
get food to eat. Then the whole world would
be preached to, the world will come to and
end. Right?

As the saying goes:
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!