doodad

[QUOTE]Originally posted by doodad:
[QB]
I find the argument that Christianity potential a little stale. ...
I meant to say that I find the argument that Christianity limits potential a little stale.

Amos

Limbo is eternity spend living life following our lymbic system alone.

Heaven is eternity spend living life in the fullness of our capacity and thus after having transcended human understanding.

Hell is eternity spend being aware of our human limitations but not being able to cross over and obtain the mind of God.

Purgatory is the transition period when we have to learn to trust our own mind of God.

Between Limbo and Paradiso is the faith of the believer whom through baptism can have communication with the saints in heaven . . . which is real, of course, but maybe not real as you might perceive real to be.

Eternity is in the absense of time but can never be longer than we are alive because we must exist to either be temporal or eternal.
This kind of means that we can spend eternity in limbo while being completely void of intimations of immortality.

Amos

Ron Garrett

I was about to say that I think Christianity can lead to a great deal of self-limiting, but thinking on it, those of my acqauintance that I would say are limited, were limited before their conversion as well as after.

windsofchange

How low can you go?

brighid

“Here I was referring to Revelation 20:10 where we have the only clear indication that Satan and the devils will not be destroyed in Hell, but will suffer eternally”

Rev 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I see reference to a singular devil, a singular beast and a single false prophet (who are already there). Rev 20:10 makes no reference to and his devils (which elsewhere in Revelation are interpreted to be 1/3 of the stars in heaven perhaps improperly). So, this does not support your premise that this is the “only clear indication that Satan and his devils” but only a devil, a beast and a false prophet shall suffer forever and ever.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So it seems that death, hell and the lake of fire are three separate places, (and even the dead in the sea – maybe another place the dead can go) according to these passages in Revelation. It also says that the dead will be judged by their works (both those in death and hell) and after this judgment they will be cast into the lake of fire. It seems that hell is not this Lake of Fire even.

As to the antichrist – there are only 5 references made about this person all in 1John and 2John. And only a singular instance of an antichrist, but four instances in which people who are liars and deceivers are antichrists and that many are already among us. The words even seem quite forced in those verses, but I don’t know if these passages are disputed as authentic or not. They simply strike me as odd.

Now, I don’t understand what outside sources we are to refer to in regards to determining the true nature of hell. Surely, we can’t actually gauge this since no human has gone to hell and returned to tell us these experiences – credibly that is. Jesus didn’t tell any of those he allegedly appeared to after descending into hell for three days.

I think the reason non-Christians can’t make accurate heads or tails of this is because Christians can’t. This god did not see fit to make it clear in his holy and divinely inspired and inerrant text - so we are left to speculation and supposition. I feel this is hardly reliable when one is attempting to determine the truth of the “divine.”

brighid

Teutonic

It's the same old same old. All interpretation. No one is right. Everyone is right. How can anyone make sense of any of this? How can any of us know for sure? I would venture to say that the Hebrew Bible must have the information, and if it doesn't, then it doesn't make sense for us to think that if it appears in the NT, it's right! How can G-d go around changing things, concepts, punishments, etc?

Nomad

Fair enough. My original point had been that we cannot know from Scipture alone that those who will be sent to Hell will be tormented forever. I accept that Satan, the Anti-Christ and the devils can be shown to suffer forever from Scripture alone (although you are right that we would need to look at more than just Revelation 20 to do this). I maintain that the rest of damned will suffer eternally in Hell, but based on both Church teachings coupled with Scripture.

First, I am unsure which translation you are using here (it looks like the KJV), but it is not an especially good one. It is not "hell" that is cast into the lake of fire, but "hades", generally seen to be merely the abode of the dead. It is also translated as "the grave" (see 1 Cor. 15:15). Most translations recognize the distinction, and refer to Hades in this context in verse 14 (see the NIV, RSV, NASB, NET, NEB and New King James Bible as examples) as being cast into the lake of fire.

Secondly, I think literalistic translations of Revelation are of extremely limited value. It was written as a vision of John, and should not have its imagery treated as literal things. Since Satan and the devils are generally lumped together in other Scipture (especially as it relates to final judgement, and sentence), then I think it is safe to argue that they will be condemned to eternal torment based on Scripture alone.

The first death will be cast into the fire, to be replaced by the second (see verse 15). Again, this is imagery, and should not be read with overly literalistic eyes.

There is generally not seen to be a link between the antichrists of John's epistles and the Anti-Christ of Revelation, who is thought to be an actual individual. In the case of the letters, the antichrists are simply those that deny that Jesus is Lord or the Christ (hence, anti-christ).

The Anti-Christ will be the false Messiah, and a worshipper of Satan and the beast.

The nature of Hell is not discussed in much detail beyond imagery, especially in Scripture. Basic Christian doctrine teaches that it will be an eternal separation from God, and as this means eternal separation from all that is Good, it will be a place of eternal suffering. Images of torture and fire are meant to help understand these torments, but need not be taken literally. The question left to be resolved is to whether or not the damned will retain some kind of sentience, and therefore be aware of their condition after the "second death". Bede would argue that they will not, and therefore that they will be annihilated.

Actually, Christian doctrine on this particular point could not be much clearer. The damned will suffer eternal separation from God. They will never again experience any kind of joy, happiness or good. All that will remain to them is their sins, and eternal aloneness, separated from all that is good. Obviously, it will be more terrible than anything that can be imagined by the human mind.

There does not seem to be much room for speculation on this point, and that is one of the things that has troubled many Christians and even non-Christians through the ages.

Nomad

sailor74

HELL:
its a state of consciousness, its not literal.
consider the following.

Proverbs 15:24 "the way of life is above (using your head) that ye may depart from hell beneath." ruled
by your lower or carnal nature.

you see no hell fire, just your state of mind, which if its not right , makes you feel like your living in hell.

You christian fundamentalists do not understand, that the bible is a non literal book. No heaven no hell, these are metaphors only, for states of being. You can argue till the cows come in about a literal heaven or hell. But your wasting your time.

The kingdom of god (heaven)is WITHIN you, not out there somewhere. God is the god of the LIVING and not the god of the DEAD or hav'nt yopu read that yet. Or do you even read the friggin book at all?

All xtian fundamentalist, should at ot once grow up and quit believing in Santa clause, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and the friigin bible literally.

danny

sailor74

The Bible as a symbol.

Is the bible symbolic. we must use the bible itself to see.

2 corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not the letter, but of the
spirit; for the LETTER (literal) killeth, but the spirit giveth lifr (understanding). So theres the bible itself
telling us not to take it literal.

Galations 4:24 "Which things are an allegory. Remember the definition of myth include the word allegory,
teeling us its symbolic.

Matthew 13:34 :all things spake jesus unto the multitudes in parables; and without a parable spake he
not unto them: The bible is saying that all of jesus statements were symbolic, as he himself was the
symbol of the greek sun, horus and amen ra the sun god of egypt and many more.

I have called my son out of egypt.

Psalm 78:2 'I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter DARK sayings of old: Here the bible states that
god speaks in parables. And what are dark sayings of old. Obviously there are symbolic statements. Not
literal.


Finally in proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise. and their
DARK sayings.


If you still don't get it, then you are just a bunch of blind sheep, following blind ignorant preachers and other religious nin compoops.


danny

emur

Hi,

I post infrequently due to time constraints, but I have to chime in here. Clarity on this issue isn't as clear as some would like it to be.

Consider Romans 5:18-19. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Then there is 1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

Even in context, these verses teach that ultimately all will be made alive in Christ. This is the standard Christian universalist position.

My point here is that the issue is not clear because the bible is not clear. Some passages teach an eternal hell with eternal punishment. Some strongly suggest annihilation. Others teach universalism.

Why is this? Simply, the bible is not unified on many areas of doctrine because the men who wrote it differed on many areas of doctrine. It is nothing more than a compilation of many authors who differed widely on their views of god working in Jewish history and in early Christian history.

Mel