sailor74

Ron

you are right, can agree more.

sailor

Vorkosigan

Clarification: by "annihilation," I assume Bede means that the damned simply cease to exist? Whilst those in heaven go on forever?
So such torment as occurs is transient and death is eternal?

Michael

Nomad

Yes I do.

Right. As with many passages of the Bible (and the same holds true with almost any documents or statements made in human language), there is more than one way to interpret what is said. Revelation exacerabates this problem in that the genre is one of apocalytptic visions, and cannot be read as literal in all of its passages, even by the most literalistic of folks.
Bottom line, Rev. 20 could easily be shown to limit the "sentence" to eternal suffering to only Satan, his devils and the Anti-Christ.

I think even the most hardened fundamentalist would have a hard time claiming that this passage applies to all non-believers, as much of Revelation spends its time talking about the lead up to Judgement Day, and is very specific about what will constitute these end times. After all, not many people today have physical marks on their heads or bodies indicating that they worship the Anti-Christ.

For me, I cannot see how anyone takes Revelation to be literal, but I suppose that is a seperate debate or discussion. As I have stated before, merely reading the Bible tells us that Hell will be the abode of the devils and Satan, but trying to derive eternal suffering out of the text itself requires one to read far more into it than is there, and also to ignore many contrary passages found elsewhere in the Gospel (not to mention the Epistles, where Hell gets scant, if any treatment at all).

2 Peter 2:3-4 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Hebrews 10:26 -27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Peter confines talk of hell to the devils, and Hebrews tells us that the damned will be consumed. The images from the Synoptics also appear to show that the damned will simply be annihilated in Hell. The lone exception is found in Luke's parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), but as this is a parable, and parables were generally not seen to be literal, one can easily argue against this story proving the nature of the damned in Hell.

As a final note, Paul never mentions Hell, Hades or a lake of fire (or any other image of hell) at all, nor does the Gospel of John or 1-3 John.

I think you are ascribing a literalistic interpretation to Revelation (The Apocalypse for the Catholics) that is not necessarily warranted. At the same time, I do think that Church traditions interpret all of Scripture correctly on this question, and that the damned will suffer eternally. Basically one should not accept that this interpretation is the only viable one available to us. Bede's interpretation can just as easily be argued from Scripture alone, and one would be hard pressed to prove him wrong, and I find it ironic that many sceptics (not yourself Cornelius) wish to chastise Bede for his refusal to accept traditional teachings over "plain reading" of the text.

Be well,

Nomad

Nomad

Hello again Ron, and yes, I got your interpretation the first time through. What I was telling you was that taking the rest of GMatt into account, one cannot rule out the possibility that Hell is a place where the damned will be destroyed. Your own interpretation is based upon Church teachings, and that is alright, but if you accept our doctrines as being the only acceptable understanding of the passages on the nature of Hell and the damned, why do you reject them in other instances, claiming that we should simply read the text plainly, and not read into the passages?

Actually, I was pointing out for you what is often pointed out to me by sceptics in other questions. The Bible can be read in more than one way on this question, and claims that there is only one possible interpretation (that the damned will suffer forever) is the ONLY acceptable one is wrong. As you have now dropped this argument, agreeing that the Biblical proofs are not definitive one way or the other, and moved on to other matters, I assume that the discussion is over.

Nomad

Ron Garrett

Nomad:

That settled, hopefully we can have an honest discussion of what such a doctrine implies in light of your acceptance of the church's teaching of unending torment. How does this match up with your own sense of justice and mercy? Even the Mosaic law seems in places to understand proportional punishment, though in other places it doesn't. How do you reconcile loving a god that will do to his enemies worse than Hitler did to the Jews?

sailor74

And Ron..hitler was a catholic most of his life. And the church supported him during the war.


danny

Nomad

Ron: Your question is a good one, but I am still up to my whatzits in the Josephus and Luke discussion, as well as the authorship of the Penteteuch. On this board I try to limit myself to discussions on the Bible itself. If you want to get into a discussion of the nature of Hell, and how the damned are punished, I think that this will be worth while, so long as we keep in mind that the Bible alone really doesn't tell us very much on the subject. Further, Christian doctrines themselves do not rule out varying levels of punishment for the damned. I have discussed this topic in the past, and will do so again. First I would need to know what you think the Church teaches on the nature of Hell.

To danny: Please try to stay on topic. And as for your comments, I do not think you want to go there or there. This dead horse has been sufficiently beaten, and trying to pass of such ignorance here is pretty tiresome. All of that said, your statement is hopelessly off topic for this thread (go figure, I see that pretty regularly when the discussion has come to an end).

Nomad

Vorkosigan

....All of that said, your statement is hopelessly off topic for this thread (go figure, I see that pretty regularly when the discussion has come to an end).
Nomad

Yes, an inordinate number of Sailor74's posts occupy the position of last on a thread.

I was not aware that Paul did not speak of hell, damnation etc. Is this because the arrival of the Kingdom of God is so close? Also, what was Paul's position on those who failed to accept Jesus? They just got annihilated?

Michael

Nomad

I do not think that the concept of Hell played much of a role for Paul in his teachings, so he merely skipped it. Since he tells us nothing, speculating on his beliefs on the matter would be exactly that, speculation. Very simply, he neither argued for, nor against the Synoptics on this question. He is silent.

As for what Paul said would be the fate of the wicked, he tells us:

Romans 2:6-12 For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/i]

The image is that the wicked will perish, albeit in great tribulation and distress, facing God's wrath. Obviously, their fate is not pleasant, regardless of how one might interpret these verses.

As for the Gospel of John, and the three epistles of John, the question of hell does not come up. The fate of the damned is consistently presented as one of death, perishing, and destruction.

Interestingly, the idea of anti-christs does come up in John's epistles, but they are not identified with any one individual. These people are nothing more than those that denied the Gospel that Jesus is the Christ.

Nomad

doodad

I find the argument that Christianity potential a little stale. As to the existence of Hell, consider the purpose it
serves in the Christian religion. It is the
ultimate punishment, the capital punishment,
if the subject is absolutel incorrigible and unyielding. Judaism does have an equivalent to the Christian Hell, and its definition is
amusing to me. It basically goes like this.
If you break the Canon Law you are doomed to
a state of limbo, or floating around out there in space somewhere. The Jew's Hell is
not even defined as a locale as is the case
with Christianity. I am really fuzzy on the
Christian religion, but it seems that remnants of the Jewish belief has been carried forward to the Christian doctrine. One supposedly exists in a state of transition before actually being admitted to the Pearly Gates. I guess in that state you
are being judged. Judaism has another peculiar trait of of a rather qualified perdition. It seems if your offence is deemed to be relatively minor you remain in
this suspended state for a period of time,
but if you have been especially naughty you
are doomed to eternal limbo. I shouldn't
be criticizing peoples' beliefs like this, and I usually try not to. However, this is
my day to be tacky. Sorry.

The Jewish concept of perdition being a state
of limbo without a home for their soul fits with their experience of being torn from their homes and from their land on so many occasions. It seems the Jews have yet to
return in total from the diaspora. Maybe this element of uncertainty is an intentional
part of their doctrine. Apparently the uncertainty of not knowing where your soul will finally reside is as bad as actually going to Hell. It's a pschological tool that
is built into the doctrine and is probably intented to help keep the adherents in line.