Freethought & Rationalism Archive

04-17-2001, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:
The third view, which I hold to, is the notion of solidarity... Jesus enters into solidarity with us. That is he is willing to identify so closely with our problems that he becomes one of us and is even willing to die as one of us. Sure enough, he dies as the lowest level of human society. Thus God has stated his level of sodlidarity, that it is absolute, he is willing to identify with us all the way. When we give our lives to Christ we return that committment, we pledge our solidarity to him. And that creates the grounds upon which God forgives our sins, because we are willing to be in solidarity with God as he is with us.

Nice theory. Unfortunately the Bible has a different one.

Quote:

Hebrews 9

1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.
2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place.
3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place,
4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry.
7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.
10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."
21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.
22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

In short, Christ�s sacrifice was just like the sacrifice of a sheep or a goat, only better because He was divine.

Now if only the writer of Hebrews had possessed your superior wisdom, perhaps the Christian doctrine of Vicarious Atonement would have been a bit different.

04-17-2001, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trunks2k:
When I was a chrisitian, this was something I never understood. As a child I was always told that Jesus died so he could take away our sins. How exactly does that work? I just can't make the connection between his death and it thus relieves us of our sins.

======================================
I'm not a Christian, but I've never understood this, either, when Christian friends have tried to explain it to me. It just makes no rational sense--it's not something that can be demonstrated or explained rationally.

I have a theory of what it's all about, though: I think it's an idea, or phrase, intended to give people a burden of some sort, which in turn is intended to make them behave in a certain way. If Jesus died for your sins, then you have some sort of obligation to him, right? And just what is that obligation? Why, it's to behave as someone else wishes you to behave! It's to give you a sense of obligation and guilt.

04-17-2001, 03:47 PM

It's all voodoo, I tells ya.

04-17-2001, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez:
Trunks2, I hear your daddy calling back at the church, quick run back before you fall in league with the Devil hear at the infidel board. You can rotate out theology text on a Christian board, this is not the place for it.

Are you atempting to make fun of me? If so, why the fuck for? First of all I said "back when I WAS christian" implying that I don't believe that any more (I'm a secular humanist now). And how DARE you fucking think that I'm in cohoots with Meta you asshole, maybe if you bothered to check out some of my other topics/replies you would see that I don't believe in Christianity. The reason I started this thread was simply because I was simply curious. If you can't at least take things seriously don't reply to my threads you fucker.
BTW I still don't understand the correlation between our sins and Jesus' death.

04-17-2001, 07:04 PM

::Tries to play the Christian for a while::

Ok he came and died in the cross to 'take away our sins'. Take away our sins? What sins?

::thinks for a while::

Ah! yes those sins the ones that were passed to us by Adam and Eve generation after generation! Cool! so that means we are free to do as we wish? and does that means that with Jesus death God story ends? and mankind is free from him now? Awesome!

::Stops playing the Christian::

[This message has been edited by Ether (edited April 17, 2001).]

04-17-2001, 07:33 PM

Trunk2, looks like from your reply you are a christian trying to fool everyone. If you're that slow you must be a Christian. An Atheist would have had more fun with the posts. Your cross is showing through your T-Shirt.

04-17-2001, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez:
Trunk2, looks like from your reply you are a christian trying to fool everyone. If you're that slow you must be a Christian. An Atheist would have had more fun with the posts. Your cross is showing through your T-Shirt.

You mean the crossbuster that's on my T-shirt? I'm happy that can show through.

04-18-2001, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Critical Thinking: It really just transfers the debt from �Death by God� to, �you owe Christ� and have to do what he says and dictates or you go back to the prior Death by God.

Critical Thinking,

Thanks for giving me a good laugh so early in the morning - that's a very concise way of putting the whole thing. I think it's so funny because that's exactly how most xtians I know treat it.

04-19-2001, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez:
Metacrock, What"A"Crock

Meta => Say that's real clever to make fun of a name desinged to be self depricating! What a brilliant insight you must have, Critical thinking made simplistic.

You had your Christian buddy start this thread so you could show up with your sheriff's badge of crock and spread the old news that Jesus committed suicide for our sins.

Meta => I don't even know that guy, and I don't think he is a Christian.

I think my version is more to the truth than your Crock of Crap...may tastes good with the sweetener to some but hard to swallow for the rest of us... and still crap. Go back to your Bible Board to rotate out theology, we heathens aren't falling for such ignorant tactics.

Meta => Your silly little amaturish antics hardly qualify as thought of any kind. You are living in deniel and your whole argument just amounts to saying "big mean preacher man wont let me screw, me no like!" There's a lot more to it than just "sin" !

I think that it is a waste of timeto try and discuss anything with a child who is incapable of serious thought. Moltmann, Whiteley are serious scholars and it just shows what a moron you are that you are incapable of analyzing serious ideas without insults and name calling.

You imly that if one addresses the concept of sin this is some major stupidity, So how od you account for human failings? Have you never wondered why you can't get out of benig a jerk?

[This message has been edited by Metacrock (edited April 19, 2001).]

04-20-2001, 04:47 PM

Did you say something Meta-Crotch?

Relax a little, that is the trouble with you Christians... no sense of humor, and you don't know how to blend humor in with argument. If you feel insulted, that means you don't have to argue the point because it can't possibly be right, how could it, your alias is so important, more important that the argument?

My argument here has been that most doctrine was created by man's mistaken interpretations of stories/Ideas in the Bible. It had nothing to do with you and your name. How trivial of you to defend a alias.

Do you really think most people can stay awake reading these boring Xian's 20 page posts, much less the Bible... another super bowl of excitement?

You would never last in the "real" world of normal PEOPLE, they would die of boredom.

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04-17-2001, 03:47 PM	#13
Guest Posts: n/a	It's all voodoo, I tells ya.

04-17-2001, 07:04 PM	#15
Guest Posts: n/a	::Tries to play the Christian for a while:: Ok he came and died in the cross to 'take away our sins'. Take away our sins? What sins? ::thinks for a while:: Ah! yes those sins the ones that were passed to us by Adam and Eve generation after generation! Cool! so that means we are free to do as we wish? and does that means that with Jesus death God story ends? and mankind is free from him now? Awesome! ::Stops playing the Christian:: [This message has been edited by Ether (edited April 17, 2001).]

04-17-2001, 07:33 PM	#16
Guest Posts: n/a	Trunk2, looks like from your reply you are a christian trying to fool everyone. If you're that slow you must be a Christian. An Atheist would have had more fun with the posts. Your cross is showing through your T-Shirt.

04-20-2001, 04:47 PM	#20
Guest Posts: n/a	Did you say something Meta-Crotch? Relax a little, that is the trouble with you Christians... no sense of humor, and you don't know how to blend humor in with argument. If you feel insulted, that means you don't have to argue the point because it can't possibly be right, how could it, your alias is so important, more important that the argument? My argument here has been that most doctrine was created by man's mistaken interpretations of stories/Ideas in the Bible. It had nothing to do with you and your name. How trivial of you to defend a alias. Do you really think most people can stay awake reading these boring Xian's 20 page posts, much less the Bible... another super bowl of excitement? You would never last in the "real" world of normal PEOPLE, they would die of boredom.

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