Josephus,

Mike, for a Christian you don't argue like one, and you are not very perceptive.

Captain Bloodloss and I have been going at this for a while now. I've had to suffer through a great deal to get to the point where I could demand a straight answer from him, and now that I'm finally there, he won't answer. I don't even really care what his answer is anymore -- I would just like an answer. His evasiveness makes me want to tear my hair out, frankly. I'm sorry it's spilling over onto you, but this guy just drives me insane -- he'll type a thousand lines about how loving and spiritual a person he is and how much he wishes he could mend fences and promote harmony all over the world, but he won't answer a simple "yes or no" question! I have this nagging suspicion that he's finally realizing there is no truth to what he's been saying. It all sounds very good, or rather, in looks good on e-paper, but the reality isn't there. He talks about realizing the power of the resurrection in one's life, but he denies the resurrection itself -- or does he? I don't know! He won't answer my question!

Captain...I do disagree that with your position that the literalness of the resurrection is irrelevant.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,...oh, thank you! I'm so glad somebody sees that!

(Hey, even if it's not relevant, do you think you could convince Captain Bloodloss to give me an answer? Huh? Huh? Pleeeeeeeease?)

--Mike

I agree, none of this most recent barrage about me personally should have been taking place on this forum, but since Mike forced the issue publically, I felt I had to defend myself publically -- but you know that could have been in error.

I have given you an answer Mike, many times over. You just don't seem to be able to grasp it. I'm thankful to for the poster above's opinion. Of course there are many many people who would disagree with me. A great many. As I grow and learn, perhaps I will understand things differently too. But the difference is, I don't need to discredit them or disparage them because they see it differently. Instead, I'd like to know what they can teach me, and grow and be enriched by them.

That's all I have to say about this. I really feel you ought to take some time away from discussion with me Mike and regroup. You're really starting to detract from the witness I think you are trying express here. It doesn't hurt me any, but I hurt for you, because I believe that in reality, your better than that...

I hope you can come to some peace and closure about all of this, even if you don't get from me what you would wish.

I hope that you will feel comfort and peace tonight.

Andrew

FYI
The late Bishop of Durham caused something of a stir a few years ago by stating he did not believe in the resurection of christ. This did not prevent him from reaching high office, achieving I believe the post of Bishop of Durham.

It suddenly occurred to me that there might be a way that I could explain what I am trying to explain to you, Mike. Everything I am able to say here I have said already in previous posts, but let me stress something and see if it makes sense to you, actually I don't care if it makes sense to you or not -- if this doesn't satisfy you, then there is no more that can be said.

You want this "Yes" or "No" or even "I don't know" answer -- here is why I cannot give it.

As a matter of history, the answer is direct -- we do not have much concrete evidence about the historical reality of the ressurection account, nor many other accounts from scripture. That doesn't mean they are true or not true. It simply means that as a matter of science and historical evidence, the answer for anyone would have to be an "I don't know."

But that doesn't answer from the perspective of FAITH. And anyone who answers the Jesus did indeed literally rise from the dead is making such a faith claim. Anyone who says he did not is also making a bit of a faith claim, since there is not conclusive evidence either way.

This is where I cannot answer with a yes, or a no, or even and I don't know -- because as a matter of faith I feel both yes and no, and any and all answers to any question of the literaness or non-literalness of the ressurection account are not truly a part of Christianfaith!

Because I don't believe conclusions arrived to about the literalness or non-literalness of the Ressurection are a proper matter of Christian faith (as I have said before, I believe the real power behind the ressurection account, and thus the proper matter for faith lies in the meaning to which the ressurection narrative both participates and points) I cannot, as Wittgenstein might say, play your "language game." I can't answer the question because I don't experience the "dilemma" on the level of faith. And if we're not really playing the same language game, then we can't really come to a place where we can give "yes" or "no" answers to each other, because our fundamental paradigms are different.

So: as a matter of scientific analysis and historical objective evidence, I can give you an answer: "I don't know." I said this eariler, by the way. But that is small victory for you -- from that perspective, you don't know either, and no one, christian or atheist, does. And as a matter of faith, I can't give you an answer, because it is not a matter of faith to me, we are not operating in the same paradigm if you will, so there can be no more definitive answer from me to you, because you are asking me to think and believe in such a way that I don't think and believe. I do not believe the literaness of the non-literaness of the ressurection account is at the heart of the meaning possibile and the potential for significance availible in the account. You are asking, "yeah but what if you did believe it was a matter of faith, THEN which would it be, yes or no?" But the problem is, I don't... so I can't answer with any answer other than the answers I have given.

I am fully prepared for your mean-spirited attitude to continue. I'm ready for you to say I'm like a plane that never lands, or call me ridiculous, or say that I am full of shit, or say that you resent me, that I'm a peddler of counterfeit bogus ideas. I'm prepared for you to treat me sarcastically, be dismissive of my thoughts, and contine to express your feelings of disgust and outrage rather than any spirit of gentleness. I'm just very sorry it has to be that way.

As far as I know, there is no possible way I could give a clearer answer to you, and so, since this discussion in particular has become so un-fun, I'm hoping this will settle it for us. But if not, then of course, I'll be here, to stick up for myself against your personal attacks if nothing else.

Andrew



[This message has been edited by Captain Bloodloss (edited January 15, 2001).]

Captain Bloodloss,

I'm not sure I can honestly accept your "I don't know" given that you followed with this very confusing statement:

...as a matter of faith I feel both yes and no....

You are saying that as a matter of faith, you feel, "Yes, Christ's dead body was still decomposing somewhere on the earth four days after he died," and "No, Christ's dead body was not still decomposing somewhere on the earth four days after he died." Can you explain to me how you believe that Christ's body both was and was not dead and decomposing somewhere on the earth four days after he died? Of course, if you'd like to drop half of your contradictory belief system and pick a real answer, I'd be more than happy to receive it.

--Mike

I was struggling for the words to describe why I can't give you a yes or no. I remember saying "both yes and no" but I can't remember what context it was in.... what I said in my last post best describes it.

If you are asking based in the historical evidence "yes or no," the answer there is based on the historical evidence, I don't know, nor do "we" know, nor does anyone know. If one answers the quesiton in any fashion other than I don't know, they do so with a degree of faith (it can be argued one is more reasonable that the other, but not by me, because my answer is I don't know.

However, that's not really what you were asking of me. Historically and as a matter of evidence, of course the answer is "I don't know." However, what you were asking me was, as a matter of faith.

The reason I cannot answer yes or no, is because I do not believe it to be a matter of Christian faith. If you will look at my last post above you will see that I am trying to describe that. I cannot accept your premise, therefore I cannot play your game, including giving a yes or no answer to a premise that I do not hold -- namely that the literalness or non-literalness of the ressurection account is a significant and necessary part of christian faith.

Andrew

Captain Bloodloss,

Historically and as a matter of evidence, of course the answer is "I don't know." However, what you were asking me was, as a matter of faith. The reason I cannot answer yes or no, is because I do not believe it to be a matter of Christian faith.

Actually, I was asking the question historically, so I'll take your official answer to be "I don't know." Thanks.

--Mike

Mike--Sorry about that last post. I'm still trying to find my way around the website here and I just bumped into some furniture!

I have read your struggle with Andrew and your frustration in trying to "nail him down" (pun perhaps intended!).

My recent post on FACTS AND FAITH will give you an idea where I am coming from and may--MAY--shed some light on why your frustration level could make you a client of the famous hair club.

Take care!

Ok, but I'm not sure what that sloves -- that is everyone's answer. Historically, it cannot be proven that Jesus rose from the dead, and (although many may say this is more reasonable) it cannot be proven that he did not (ie, no corpse).

Historically anyone who believes or disbelieves does so on "faith." The question I thought you were getting at was as a matter of Christian faith do I believe in a yes or no, and that, for all the reasons I have explained is a question I cannot answer with, yes, no or i don't know, because I do not believe it to be at the heart of the essential message of christian faith.

Andrew