Freethought & Rationalism Archive

04-20-2001, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
The whole trouble is the fall of the Albright 'Conquest Model'. (This was the theory that the Israelites left Egypt in the mid 13th century BC under the reign of Rammesses (sp?) the second.) This has been significantly disproven by archeological discoveries in the last 20 or so years and a majority of scholars do agree now that the theory is wrong.

Evidently not. Britannica:

Quote:

Exodus
the liberation of the people of Israel from slavery in Egypt in the 13th century BC, under the leadership of Moses; also, the Old Testament book of the same name.

I can check Mazar, Roux, and Gardiner if you like. But we've done this before. Oxford Companion again:

Quote:

The biblical narrative also informs us about the length of the Israelite sojourn in Egypt and the date of the Exodus. The data are not, however, consistent. Thus, 1 Kings 6.1 dates the Exodus to "the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel." Although we do not know the exact year of Solmon's accession to the throne, we know its approximate date, the mid-tenth century BCE. This would date the Israelite departure from Egypt in the mid-fifteenth century. Exodus 12.40 tells us that the Israelites lived in Egypt for 430 years pror to the Exodus; this gives the early nineteenth century for the coming of Jacob and his sons into Egypt. In Genesis 15.13, however, the length of the sojourn in Egypt is given as four hundred years; and in Genesis 15.16, the time shrinks to three generations. Moreover, the figure of 480 years is suspciously schematic: the Bible assigns twelve (a favorite and symbolic biblical number) generations between the Exodus and Solomon, and teh standard biblical lenght of a generation is forty years.

Evidence favoring a 13th century setting for the Exodus:

Quote:

The archaeological data relating to the Exodus are subject to differing interpretations. But at no point in the known archaeological sequence for Egypt, Sinai and Palestine does the extant archaeological record accord with that expected from the Exodus (or for that matter, conquest) account in the Bible. No archaeological evidence from Egypt can be construed as representing a resident group of Israelites in the delta or elsewhere, unless one accepts a general equation of the Exodus group with the Hyksos. Nor is there any evidence of an early Israelite presence anywhere in Sinai. The Mediterranean littoral was heavily used by the Egyptian army during the New Kingdom, and the remainder of Sinai shows little evidence of occupation for virtually the entire second millenium BCE, from the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age to the beginning of the Iron Age or even later. Even the site currently identified with Kadesh-barnea provides no evidence of habitation prior to the establishment of the Israelite monarchy.

(It then discusses the problem with resolving the three various proposed dates, mid-16th century, mid-15th, and the third option).

The third and most widely accepted hypothesis places the Exodus in the thirteenth century BCE. In this approach, the biblical narrative is judged and interpreted against the known historical and archaeological framework of the second millennium. Instead of working forward in time from the Exodus, this theory works backward from the Israelite conquest and settlement. Intensive archaeological research in the past twenty-five years has demonstrated a gradual proliferation of small rural settlements concentrated in the hill country of southern Canaan from around 1200, the beginning of Iron Age I. Accompanying these villages, many newly founded, was a material culture simpler than that of the large and cosmopolitan Canaanite cities of the plains. We know from contemporary texts and epigraphic material that by Iron Age II (ca. 1025) the hill country territories and their villages were inhabited by Israelites; it is but a short step to infer that it was the Israelites who established and occupied the settlements at the beginning of the Iron Age.

If the Israelite conquest and settlement occurred at the beginning of the twelfth century BCE, a time when the Egyptian empire was unraveling, then the Exodus and wilderness wanderings would have occurred slightly earlier, in the thirteenth century. This date accords better with the archaeological evidence for increased settlement east of the Jordan River in the regions of Ammon, Moab, and Edom. A thirteenth-century Exodus also fits well with the evidence of the Merneptah Stela, which would then reflect the situation in southern Palestine shortly after the Israelite settlement but prior to the development of the Israelite state. In addition, a number of sites west of the Jordan River were destroyed at the end of the thirteenth century; at least some of the destructions could be attributed to the Israelites.

You might also try this link. It's a much more detailed discussion, and touches on the linguistic evidence as well:

http://www.bib-arch.org/barjf98/go.html

[This message has been edited by Omnedon1 (edited April 20, 2001).]

04-21-2001, 08:09 AM

BD asked�

�So this story is a metaphor for what exactly? This story is supposed to inspire and uplift us? Why?�

Hey Mulder said it, not me, but I do see some truth to this, but not in every single verse. A lot of the Bible is rationalization, self engrandisement, demonizing your enemies, and a general pissing contest just like much of history.
Take Adam & Eve, humans are flawed but have great potential when looking to the �higher angels of our nature� whether real or imagined, the conflict between the freedom of the hunter gather vs. the civilized man etc.

Tercel:

Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC

Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC? What evendence did they give for this?
The volcano in Santorini blew up at this time, they speculated this caused a lot of disasters in Egypt as noted in some Egyptian texts.
quote:

Egypt with horses & chariots 11 to 1200 BC. To make matters worse there were 20 Pharaohs who took the name Ramses.

The horses and chariots is new on me. Never seen that mentioned as a problem before, which makes me suspicious of this program.
The Egyptians did not use horses or chariots until they encountered the Hittites in battle, around 11 or 1200 BC.

04-21-2001, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Omnedon1:
Exodus 12.40 tells us that the Israelites lived in Egypt for 430 years pror to the Exodus; this gives the early nineteenth century for the coming of Jacob and his sons into Egypt. In Genesis 15.13, however, the length of the sojourn in Egypt is given as four hundred years; and in Genesis 15.16, the time shrinks to three generations.

Oh dear, not this again...
Why does it shrink to three generations? Everything else says four.

The New Bible Commentary Revised tells me that the word generations here would be better translated lifetimes, and it also says that there is no problem with the four lifetimes vs four hundred years since the Patriarchs lived longer than 100 years.
Personally, I wonder if it could be meaning dynasties as in four dynasties of the Egyptian kings... but I'm not a Hebrew scholar.

Quote:

The archaeological data relating to the Exodus are subject to differing interpretations. But at no point in the known archaeological sequence for Egypt, Sinai and Palestine does the extant archaeological record accord with that expected from the Exodus (or for that matter, conquest) account in the Bible. No archaeological evidence from Egypt can be construed as representing a resident group of Israelites in the delta or elsewhere, unless one accepts a general equation of the Exodus group with the Hyksos. Nor is there any evidence of an early Israelite presence anywhere in Sinai.

Is this a joke?? Or is he serious and covering himself with the 'different interpretations' thing?? Certainly is different to other interpretations I've seen...

Quote:

The third and most widely accepted hypothesis places the Exodus in the thirteenth century BCE.

Good for him. Although if he wants us to believe him at this point he shouldn't have spouted such dribble earlier.

I think you're misinterpreting my earlier statement though. Those who hold a 13th century exodus now mostly hold a 'the Biblical Exodus is mostly myth' view, and believe that about the only correct thing in Exodus is that the Israelites were once in Egypt and then left. This is as opposed to the earlier belief in the general correctness of the Biblical account.
For our purposes most current believers in a 13th century Exodus can be considered Exodus mythers when opposed to the 15th or 16th century Exodus proponents who are willing to agree with many of the Biblical details (since they fit in with the current archeological record well at that point, despite the differing interpreations of your friend).
If you do wish to have a look at a summary of some of the current evidence, I recommend:
Israel in Egypt: the evidence for the authenticity of the Exodus tradition by James K. Hoffmeier, published New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.

[This message has been edited by Tercel (edited April 21, 2001).]

04-21-2001, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC

Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC? What evendence did they give for this?

The volcano in Santorini blew up at this time, they speculated this caused a lot of disasters in Egypt as noted in some Egyptian texts.

Thank you Marduck.
You may be interested to know that a date of 1580 for the Santorini/Thera eruption is by no means certain:

Quote:

From Sciencenet.org
The 'Minoan' eruption was dated in 1987, by radiocarbon dating, at 1645 BC. There is always an error associated with dating prehistoric events, so we can't say that the eruption occurred precisely in that year. Most recent dates suggest the eruption occurred in the period 1600 to 1700 BC.

From The Thera Volcanic Eruption
The lowest workable date for the eruption of Thera which could be made to work with all the evidence is somewhere in the mid-16th century BC (c.1570-1530BC). The balance of probabilities supports a point in the later 17th century BC, consistent with the science-dating evidence.

From: The Eruption of Thera
Although the dating of pottery supports the fifteenth century time frame for the Thera eruption, dendrochronology and radiocarbon dating supported by historical records place it at 1628/7 B.C.E.

Quote:

The horses and chariots is new on me. Never seen that mentioned as a problem before, which makes me suspicious of this program.
The Egyptians did not use horses or chariots until they encountered the Hittites in battle, around 11 or 1200 BC.

I'm just had a quick browse through a few websites and everyone seems to be of the opinion that the Hyksos introduced Chariot warfare to the Egyptians when they ruled Egypt. Which seems to mean that this program is wrong.

Bill · 04-21-2001, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede:
Bill,

You are hardly one to lecture on people believing myths. You still owe me either a retraction or new evidence on your spreading the Library myth.

I've shown that you distorted your own sources. You've also admitted that your own sources show that the Christians emptied out the chests of codex books at the Serapeum. What we disagree on is whether or not those chests of books constitute a substantial "library."

I have nothing to retract when all we are arguing over is the exact quantity of books that the Christians removed from the Serapeum; which books were never again seen in public, so far as either of us knows.

== Bill

04-23-2001, 08:57 AM

To Omnedon1's post April 20 at 7:20 p.m., to Tercel's post April 20 at 5:27 p.m.:
God destroying evidence of his, so that faith can take place, that's your spiritual belief, your speculation about life; my spiritual belief is in empirical data (archeology, physics, chemistry, etc., factually reported in newspapers), complemented with the morals of western countries that are based on an adopted code of ethics on how-to-live, still evolving.

04-23-2001, 09:22 AM

Bill,

Quote:

I've shown that you distorted your own sources.

I made an innocent ommission I was happy to put in even though it was irrelevant. I 'distorted' nothing.

Quote:

You've also admitted that your own sources show that the Christians emptied out the chests of codex books at the Serapeum.

No I did not and nor could I. The boxes CANNOT be from the Serapeum because the temple they were in was still standing and the Serapeum is unanimously said to have been destroyed. My essay says exactly this.

Quote:

What we disagree on is whether or not those chests of books constitute a substantial "library."

No Bill. What we disagree about is your intellectual integrity. I showed there was no evidence that Christians destroyed a Great Library. You incorrectly attacked me on Caesar and then declared you'd carried your point without ever replying to any of my rebuttals on Caesar, let alone anything else.

Quote:

I have nothing to retract when all we are arguing over is the exact quantity of books that the Christians removed from the Serapeum; which books were never again seen in public, so far as either of us knows.

I despair of your honesty. When this thing started you wrote:

Quote:

St. Cyril of Alexandria had his followers brutally murder Hypatia, the last leading scholar at the Great Library of Alexandria, and then burn the remaining books of the library since they were "heretical," "pagan," and "useless" to a good Christian.

I debunked the myth of the library (or its remaining books) being burnt by showing there was no library worth mentioning when Theophilus (not Cyril) destroyed the Serapeum in 391AD (not 415AD) and no sources mentioning any books at the time of the destruction. I also showed that Hypatia was not connected to the Great Library. You have provided no evidence whatsoever. You have also refused to retract anything. All you have none is insult my work on Caesar on the strength of a second rate book and refused to answer any of my rebuttals about that.

Where do the sources say what you claim, Bill? Where do they say burnt? Where do they say Hypatis was attached to the Library? Where do they mention Cyril's alleged motive? And if they don't, admit your precious myth of Christian's burning the library is just that.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

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04-21-2001, 08:09 AM	#22
Guest Posts: n/a	BD asked� �So this story is a metaphor for what exactly? This story is supposed to inspire and uplift us? Why?� Hey Mulder said it, not me, but I do see some truth to this, but not in every single verse. A lot of the Bible is rationalization, self engrandisement, demonizing your enemies, and a general pissing contest just like much of history. Take Adam & Eve, humans are flawed but have great potential when looking to the �higher angels of our nature� whether real or imagined, the conflict between the freedom of the hunter gather vs. the civilized man etc. Tercel: Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC Plagues in Egypt 1580 BC? What evendence did they give for this? The volcano in Santorini blew up at this time, they speculated this caused a lot of disasters in Egypt as noted in some Egyptian texts. quote: Egypt with horses & chariots 11 to 1200 BC. To make matters worse there were 20 Pharaohs who took the name Ramses. The horses and chariots is new on me. Never seen that mentioned as a problem before, which makes me suspicious of this program. The Egyptians did not use horses or chariots until they encountered the Hittites in battle, around 11 or 1200 BC.

04-23-2001, 08:57 AM	#26
Guest Posts: n/a	To Omnedon1's post April 20 at 7:20 p.m., to Tercel's post April 20 at 5:27 p.m.: God destroying evidence of his, so that faith can take place, that's your spiritual belief, your speculation about life; my spiritual belief is in empirical data (archeology, physics, chemistry, etc., factually reported in newspapers), complemented with the morals of western countries that are based on an adopted code of ethics on how-to-live, still evolving.

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