"The Bible says God descended on Mt. Sinai in flames of a furnace. Coincidence?"

Space Shuttle?

Source?

Go to www.reelproductions.net or type 'Jabal al Lawz' in any search engine and see what shows up.

Galtatians 4:25, "Now Hagar stands for Mt. Sinai in Arabia.."



[This message has been edited by TrueThinker (edited March 20, 2001).]

I meant an actual source - archaeological, scientific. Not a Christian film production company working on info-mercials for religious broadcasting network.

As for their conclusions, here are the flaws in them, from the Bible Archaeology Review:

http://www.bib-arch.org/br400/sinai-a.html
http://www.bib-arch.org/br400/sinai1.html

The really are no flaws in their discovery. The evidence they found is very compelling to say the least. The article fails to mention a few facts. It speculates on some of the things they found. That's all it does. It really doesn't prove that there were flaws in the discoveries made by the men.

On the home video footage they brought back with them, there was evidence of large amounts of water having washed over the rocks down from a particular part of the mountain, into a huge plain. All of this in a desert area that hardly receives any rain. The Bible says God told Moses to hit the rock on the side of the mountain and water will spring forth so the Israelites could drink. This is exactly what the evidence shows. There were other things the article left out- ie, the burnt area around the cleft rock, the fact that it was the Bedouins who told the men that Jabal al Lawz is the mountain of Moses. Now why would the Bedouins lie to the men about something like that? And ask yourself this, why is this particular mountain sealed off by the Saudi government. Why not some other mountain? Why this mountain with all this evidence?

It's funny. You seem to want to accept the opinion of the person who has never even set foot in that area over the ones who went there and brought back video footage of what they had found. Is not skeptics who are always asking for physical evidence? Order the video for yourself. I don't think you would be disappointed.

By the way, Reel Productions specializes in making documentaries of historical significance, not infomercials. Maybe you should have visited the site and found out more. You can even order the video from www.amazon.com for a cheaper price if you prefer not to order from the production company. Trust me on this one. It's best to view it for yourself.

If anyone is actually interested in purchasing this video, you should take note of a few of Reel Productions' clients.

ANGELMAN SYNDROME FOUNDATION
ASSEMBLIES OF GOD
COOK COMMUNICATIONS MINISTRIE
EASTERN EUROPEAN BIBLE MISSION
FRIENDSHIP EVANGELISM INTERNATIONAL
GOSPEL TO THE UNREACHED MILLIONS
INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
INTERNATIONAL BIBLE SOCIETY
2ND CHAPTER OF ACTS
SPARROW RECORDS
WOODMEN VALLEY CHAPEL

This film production company HAS an agenda. I think most readers can figure out what it is.

rodahi

I suspect that you HAVE an agenda too. I think most readers can figure out what it is. But as far as I'm aware that doesn't stop people from reading your posts. (Although it may stop them from bothering to reply) So why should the company having an agenda stop people watching the video? True, the evidence they present will almost certainly be one-sided, but yours normally is too. Unless you're suggesting that they fabricated the evidence? In which case you could check it by looking it up in a different source.

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tercel:
[b] Tercel: I suspect that you HAVE an agenda too. I think most readers can figure out what it is.

Yes, I have an agenda. I wish to ascertain what happened in the past. And, yes, I think most readers KNOW that is my agenda.

Tercel: But as far as I'm aware that doesn't stop people from reading your posts. (Although it may stop them from bothering to reply)

There are some who don't want to know what happened; they only wish to PROVE what they want to have happened, regardless of how absurd or improbable it may be. (Frankly, I don't care if anyone responds or does not respond to my posts.)

Tercel: So why should the company having an agenda stop people watching the video?

Name one person who has said people should "stop watching the video."

Tercel: True, the evidence they present will almost certainly be one-sided

That is precisely my point.

Tercel: but yours normally is too.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Tercel: Unless you're suggesting that they fabricated the evidence?

I haven't suggested anything except the fact that Reel Productions appears to be a Christian-oriented company with an agenda.

Tercel: In which case you could check it by looking it up in a different source.

I will take the word of scientific-minded archaeologists over Christian propagandists, except in those cases where the two agree.

rodahi

Sure there are. Most importantly, no one else can verify it, because the Saudi govt allows no one up there. Evidence that these two claim to have seen, and no one else can verify, is useless. It's like Sasquatch sightings - interesting, but nothing to test to see if the tale is correct. And yes, I'm aware they have videotape. But since archaeology requires testing the physical evidence itself (the rocks, shards of pottery, bones, whatever) their "discovery" has bucketloads of problems with it.

Evidently it isn't. Nothing that they have identified is connect-able with the events in question.

Wrong. See the above. Also note that the so-called discoverers themselves are much more guarded than you are; perhaps you should learn from their example. See the following from the BAR article:


And finally, they aren't even the first crackpots to venture this idea. Ron Wyatt has also claimed this, as well as Howard Blum. "Discover" is a bad word for recycling an archaeological "urban legend" and then making a film about it.


Most deserts are subject to flash flooding. In fact, it's a serious problem in our own Southwestern deserts.
No help for your argument here.


Except that water cutting through rock and leaving pressure prints or grooves takes hundreds or thousands of years to accomplish. And the bible does not mention that there was a river that popped out, with massive amounts of water at tremendous force.


"Lie"? What are you talking about? What makes you think that the Bedouins have definitive knowledge where the mountain of Moses is at anyhow, TrueThinker? Your question is silly.

Besides, do you remember the current location for Mt. Sinai? The place called Jebel Musa? Well, guess what: that name is actually the Arabic jabal muusaa, which means "mountain of Moses". Oops. So basically you have one group of Bedouin Arabs saying that Mt. Sinai is this mountain in the south, and another group saying that it's the other mountain your two film maker friends found. So you tell me: which set of Bedouin Arabs should we believe here, because they can't both be right. If you're going to use the Bedouins as some kind of "truth-o-meter" here, you need to tell me:

a. why you think the bedouins know the truth at all here, since they're not even Judeo-Christian; and
b. how come different Bedouins identify different mountains


Oh, and one more thing to complicate the story for your filmmaker friends: "Jebel al-Lawz" is the Arabic jabal al-lawz, meaning "mountain of the almonds". Given that, why would the Bedouin Arabs refer to it as the "mountain of Moses" anyhow? So yes, I suspect there may be some problems with this story as well.


Maybe the mountain is used in fighter plane practice runs, and the govt wants to keep the area off limits to avoid killing civilians. That's certainly more likely than some kind of conspiracy.


I have lots of good reasons for that. Again, read:

And here, try this as well:
http://www.bib-arch.org/barja99/gold_of_exodus.html

Looks like my guess about the place being a military site was correct. Hmmm.



The video is irrelevant without physical evidence that can be inspected and tested.

TrueThinker, educate yourself on trying to do archaeology via film making. Read up on the Sun Pictures effort to document the location of Noah's Ark, and how they were totally scammed by someone who wanted to expose them as frauds. It demonstrates what happens when amateur christian filmmakers set out trying to prove the bible at any cost:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/sun.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html


No, they do not.
They are a mill house for a certain brand of religious and "family oriented" films that are nonscientific and non-historical fictions that are "uplifting". They are not a documentary company.


I did. I made my comment precisely BECAUSE I visted the site.


Trust you?
No thanks. I'd rather trust someone who knows about archaeology, and isn't trying to produce infomercial for biblical inerrantism.



[This message has been edited by Omnedon1 (edited March 28, 2001).]

Omnedon1:
You seem to have confused me and TrueThinker in your above post: You were replying to his post yet you used my name. Now I know both our names begin with T and therefore it's pretty confusing, but you could try looking at the rest of our names to distinguish us.

Tercel, who is not TrueThinker