Umm...I hate to break it to you, but the European Union is not at war with Israel, and has therefore no business signing any peace treaty with them...

fG

Laura,

(1) If Jesus was speaking about a generation in the distant future, why did he say to those standing around him "Even so, when YOU see these things happening, YOU know that it is near, right at the door"? Did Jesus lead those standing around him to believe falsely that he was addressing them rather than people in the distant future?

(2) Why didn't Jesus simply say "that" instead of "this" generation, if Jesus wanted to talk about a future one?

(3) Why would he have taught his contemporaries the fig tree analogy if they could not possibly have applied it, since they wouldn't have seen the signs that showed the end was right at the door? Why did Jesus tell them specifically to "learn from the fig tree" if they could not possibly have done so, given that the signs were reserved for a distant future generation?

(4) Your point about the fig tree being Israel is both a non sequitor and irrelevant to the meaning of "this generation." The fig tree was simply used as an analogy for the act of looking for signs. Jesus told his followers that they should look for signs of the world's end just as they look at the leaves of a fig tree to tell when summer approaches. Jesus' analogy of the fig tree was not itself a prophecy about Israel! Whether or not the fig tree was used by prophets in the Hebrew Scriptures to symbolize Israel doesn't mean Jesus likewise used the fig tree in this instance as a prophecy. That is your non sequitor. Jesus here uses the fig tree as an analogy not a prophecy. This is shown by Jesus' connecting words between the fig tree statement and his prophecy about "this generation." Between these two Jesus says "Even so" or "So you in like manner..." Showing the "likeness" between two things is the purpose of an analogy not a prophecy. When Jesus says "when you see these things happening" he is not referring to his statement about the fig tree, but the list of signs he mentioned in, for example, all of Mark 13. The far simpler explanation of Jesus' fig tree statement is that this was his way of saying that people already look for signs, as in the case of detecting the approach of summer from the change in fig trees, and should do nothing different regarding the coming of God's kingdom. The "lesson" of the fig tree is that the way in which fig trees change to signal the coming summer is an EXAMPLE of signs preceding a major change.

(5) What on Earth does Jesus' statement about the fig tree that "as soon its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near" have to do with the foundation of Israel in 1948? Jesus' analogy is about the blossoming of an already existing structure, the fig tree, signifying the approach of summer, whereas Israel was created for the Jews in one swift bureaucratic act (the surrender of the British mandate to the UN) as opposed to a natural blossoming. How does the formation of Israel after WWII specifically match up with the way in which Jesus describes the fig tree's changes revealing the coming summer? Where was the "tenderness" in the formation of Israel? What were the "leaves"? What was the "summer"? Israel was formed after battles between Zionist guerilla groups and Arabs, and the Nazis' near extermination of the European Jews, not anything resembling "tenderness" or the blossoming of leaves. Why should any reasonable person give credence to such a vague ad hoc comparison?

(6) Moreover, your interpretation of which generation Jesus was referring to reduces his teaching to a meaningless tautology: if "this generation" means simply "the generation that eventually will come and fulfil the prophecy," Jesus' teaching then becomes "the generation that will fulfil the prophecy will not pass away until the prophecy is fulfilled." By changing the meaning of "this generation" as you have done, you change Jesus' teaching from a factual declaration of WHEN the prophecy will be fulfilled to a useless analytic statement, a pointless repetition of words, a tautology that is true by definition. Instead of Jesus giving his followers the important information that they are the last generation and that the end will come soon, according to you Jesus gives them a useless tautology that boils down to "the end will come when the end will come" or "the final generation won't pass away until the final things happen to the final generation," a useless repetition of words that is no longer factual or empirical (synthetic a posteriori).

****

Why don't you continue to dance for us, Laura, and rationalize the embarrassing bible verses that follow?

Matt 16 (KJV)
16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 Thess 4:15 (NIV)
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE, WE WHO ARE LEFT till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.


Heb 10 (NIV)
36
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

37
For in just a VERY LITTLE WHILE, "He who is coming will come and WILL NOT DELAY.


James 5:8 (KJV)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord DRAWETH NIGH.


I Peter 4:7 (KJV)
But the END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.


I John 2:18 (KJV)
Little children, it is the LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


Rev (KJV)
1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the TIME IS AT HAND.

3:11
Behold, I COME QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

22:7
Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

22:12
And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, SURELY I COME QUICKLY. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

*****

Given that you will resort to the 2 Pe.3 dodge, here is my reply:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (NIV), "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

(1) The Christian can be asked to give a single instance in the bible where an event is described as coming "near," "soon," "in a very little while," and "without delay" (Heb.10:37, etc), and the referenced event happened 2000 years later. Clearly this would be a misuse of language on the NT writers' part. "Near," "soon," etc never ever mean "at least 2000 years from now." They are simply the wrong words to signify great temporal distance. Are we to believe that God is a less competent writer than an ordinary human?

(2) God would have written the bible for humans not for himself, and should have been able to translate his sense of time into our own, as he apparently did in all the unproblematic instances of temporal terms in the bible. Why, then, should we give 2 Pe.3:8-9 a special meaning? The Christian here commits the fallacy of special pleading.

To demonstrate this, simply substitute "thousand years" for "days" in other bible passages and note the resulting absurdities:

Matthew 12:40 (NIV)
For as Jonah was three thousand years in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three thousand years in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 4:2 (NIV)
After fasting forty thousand years, he was hungry.

Matthew 17:1 (NIV)
After six thousand years, Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.

The same would result were we to substitute "far" for "near," "much later" for "very little while," "slowly" for "quickly," "with much delay" for "without delay," "not at hand" for "at hand," and so on. This is a blatant case of special pleading on the Christian's part.

(3) Most scholars agree that 2 Peter was written both relatively late and pseudonymously (from http://encarta.msn.com):

"The Second Epistle is addressed to all Christians. Ecclesiastical tradition has attributed both Epistles to Saint Peter, but modern scholars have questioned Peter's authorship of the First Epistle, and most have doubted his authorship of the Second Epistle."

and further

"The Second Epistle of Peter is generally believed to have been written by an unknown person during the 2nd century. The Epistle has been accepted as canonical since the 4th century. It was written to strengthen the Christian belief in the second coming of Christ, a belief that had been attacked and ridiculed as ill-founded."

So it would appear that 2 Peter was written to give Christians just the kind of crutch they need to fend off criticism. The fact that 2 Peter is a forgery also tells us of the desperate motives behind the letter: the early Christians had expected the end to come soon, as so many passages in the NT attest; but as time passed and the end did not come, instead of giving up their faith the Christians rationalized away the error, putting a favorite explanation in the mouth of Peter, as we find in 2 Pe.3:8-9.



[This message has been edited by Earl (edited April 27, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by faded_Glory:

[B]Umm...I hate to break it to you, but the European Union is not at war with Israel, and has therefore no business signing any peace treaty with them...

Exactly, so what is the Bible telling us?


What is going to happen in the near future?


The surrounding Arab Countries are lining up against Israel. Hussein has a voluteer army
in the millions, ready to go to war with Israel - A Holy War. Bin Laden is also calling for A Holy War.

The European Union is already involved in the Middle East Peace Process. Arafat and the Israeli Leaders have recently asked the EU to help them with the Peace Process. In fact, Arafat has every Nation involved.


The Prophet Zechariah prophesied that in the latter days Jerusalem would become " a cup
of trembling unto all the people round about" and "a burdensome stone for all people." [Zechariah 12: 2-3]

Clearly, Jerusalem is a stumbling block to
Peace, exactly as Zechariah prophesied.


Israel will need protection.

Daniel 9:27

He shall 'confirm' the Covenant with
* many * for one 'week' - 7 years.

Many - other Nations


Daniel 11:24
" He shall enter peaceably."

He will be hailed as 'A Great Peacemaker'
He is the 'Great Deceiver'

We know that this Leader will come from
the EU because -

Daniel 9:26 states:

" And the people of the * prince that shall come * shall destroy the city [Jerusalem]
and the santuary [Temple]

Who destroyed the City [Jerusalem] and the
santuary [Temple] ?

The Romans led by Titus in 70 AD

Therefore we know that this Leader will come from the Revived Roman Empire [Daniel chapters 2 & 7] - The European Union.


This is another reason to watch Dr Van Impes
weekly television program - http://www.jvim.com

Another good news program - Hal Lindsey's Intelligence Briefing and also a program called Gods News. Check your local Christian
stations for TV listing in your area.

You will hear some very interesting news
on these television programs.

Have you ever been to Europe?

The Roman Empire did not include Scandinavia or Ireland, and by no stretch of the imagination does Italy have all or even most of the power in the EU. Sorry, this "revived Roman Empire" thing just doesn't work.

And Israel doesn't exist, nor has it ever existed in its form during the Davidic empire, or in the boundaries described in the Bible. Furthermore, I think that some of Israel (particularly Gaza Strip) will be given to the Palestinians (despite recent deteriorations in peace negotiations).

And I'm sure it never occured to Laura that Daniel's "prophecy" is a reference to Antiochus IV, the Seleucid king that oppressed the Jews.

Pitshade, John saw the second coming in a vision, so he did not die before he saw it.

Yes France, Italy and Spain. However,
this was many years ago.

Earl writes:

>>Why don't you continue to dance for us,
Laura, and rationalize the embarrassing bible verses that follow?


I have news for you Earl, I'm not going to
dance for anyone!


Why listen to me. There are numerous Bible Commentaries, written by Bible Scholars which can be found on the internet. There
are also numerous Bible Prophecy websites which can be found on the internet.


Jesus Speaking:

" Seek and ye shall find."


After reading numerous posts from atheists in this forum, I have come to the conclusion that you guys will never have enough proof.


You all remind me of Thomas ( Doubting Thomas). After the Resurrection, the disciples went to Thomas and told him that they had seen Jesus. Did Thomas beleive the disciples? No, he had to * see * this for himself and when he came upon Jesus, he still didn't beleive. What did he do? He poked Jesus with his fingers! He actually used his fingers and poked into the wounds of Jesus.

A leader from the Revived Roman Empire -[European Union]- [Daniel chapters 2 & 7] will sign a 7 year Covenant [Peace Treaty] with Israel.
Sooo, the European Union is a Revived Roman Empire? Hmmm, I wonder how the English, French and Germans feel about that?
"And he shall 'confirm' the Covenant with many for one week."
' week ' - Hebrew - [ shabua ] - 7 years
A week is seven years? Sorry, but that is utter bulls**t.

The * moment * that this Leader from the Revived Roman Empire [European Union] signs this Covenant [Peace Treaty] with Israel, the Revelation -(final chapter of the Bible) begins. The Revelation lasts for 7 years. This Leader will rule and reign for 7 years.
Uh, is that seven of OUR years or is that seven years of 52 seven-year-weeks?

Jesus returns to earth at the END of the
7 year Revelation to * STOP * the destruction
that has come upon the earth. Note: This is the destruction that MAN has caused.

As compared to the almost total destruction that god caused with the GREAT FLOOD.

Jesus Speaking:
"Take heed that no man deceive you."
ecco speaking:
Take heed that no biblical nonsense deceive you.

In any case, Laura, what is the outside time for all this to occur? I need to know so I can warn my grandchildren. Oh, and by the way, haven’t many other theologians in the past also predicted the IMMINEMT second coming?

Sooner than you think.