Theo the Logian

So basically, you admire him for sharing your social and political views?
He basically sounds like your average liberal politician. I know he is very popular with the Hollywood set. That's interesting that traditional Buddhism prohibits homosexual acts.
Sounds to me like he is basically a public figure, kind of like a Pope the Queen of England. He doesn't sound like a bad Guy, as far as those types go, but not someone I feel is worthy of reverence. I like the current pope as far as popes go, but I would rather shake his hand and look him in the eye, than bow and kiss his ring. I wouldn't do that, actually.
To each his own, I guess.
The thing that sets Christ a part from the Dalai Lama is that Christ stirred things up and actuallly did things. He was out walking around hanging out with prostitutes and lepers and theives, healing people, not hanging out with the Hollywood set living in posh comfort speaking the liberal party line to liberals who want to hear it.
He also is not in Tibet, which seems to imply that he is looking out for his own neck, more than Christ was, as opposed to focusing only on his cause.

hezekiah jones

I have to agree. There's no question in my mind that Christ would have been a Republican.

brighid

Yes, the Dalai Lama shares many of the same philosophies and ideologies I do but he embodies these qualities much better than I do. But isn’t that why Jesus is so appealing to you? Would you worship and being that embody qualities contrary to your own philosophical and ideological system? No – the Dalai Lama does not live in Tibet because his life has been threatened and after all he is only a mortal man and makes no claim of being a god, like your Jesus did. He does not have a death wish and in a communist state he is a criminal. He is doing much more for this world by being an active member of it than allowing his murder to be some sort of substantive sacrifice. He is not trying to fulfill a Messianic Prophecy. Wouldn’t Jesus have better served the world if he had stuck around a few more years or decades and sacrificed himself later in life? I believe if you read the articles I posted he discusses his reason for choosing exile over certain death. If it is not there, please let me know and I will see if I can find that article and post it.

The Dalai Lama may indeed attract some of Hollywood’s elite, but he lives in no posh existence. He certainly lives a much more humble life then say the Pope does with far fewer riches like those found in the vaults of Vatican City or the likes of vocal Christian leaders like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or others of that caliber. I see no fancy robes on him, no jeweled crowns, or golden thrones, no jeweled rings or mansions like those many Cardinals live in … Furthermore, you can only make claims that your Jesus healed the sick. The Dalai Lama makes no miraculous claims about himself and leads the life of a simple monk who has a profound message to share with the world. I have yet to see him express his views rudely, or tell anyone that they will rot in hell for not following the proper path. He lives simply and deals with all people equally, without prejudice and without holy judgment and condemnation. He understands that as knowledge evolves so must religion. He is not stuck in dogmatic views that are contrary to rational thought or scientific evidence, but rather he is open minded and speculative, always seeking to deepen his understanding of the world around him. He is not arrogant in his beliefs and he does not try to convert the world to Buddhism. I find little to contend with in his character as a man or as a spiritual leader. And 2,000 years from now there won’t be the debate – Did the Dalai Lama exist because he has left ample outside evidence of his existence? He also seems to attract far larger crowds then Jesus did. It’s too bad your god chose to come to life as an illiterate Carpenter accompanied by illiterate goat hearders, therefore unable to leave any substantial legacy outside of hear say and myth parading as a Holy Gospel. It’s also unfortunate that he forfeited himself in a bloody sacrifice only a few years into his ministry. Imagine how better the world could have been served if he had only been born in China at the same time, where the printing press had existed for 500 years already. He would likely have been educated, been able to read and write and could have left of with his actual words, not the none sense we now have.

So, indeed if find compassion, kindness, generosity, gentility, rational thought, honor, integrity, the strict adherence to truth, empathy, love, a non-judgmental attitude, strong intellect and many of the other qualities that the Dalai Lama embodies to be right in line with my own personal philosophies. My question to you is – why don’t you and why on Earth would attack the Dalai Lama? Isn’t that against Christian morals?

And you certainly cannot support your claim that the Dalai Lama is looking out ONLY for his cause. He is one of the few religious leaders that is truly interested in assisting all people, while preserving his own religious and cultural heritage. Unlike Christ he does not come as a sword. Maybe you should take some time to educate yourself about the Dalai Lama before making judgments about a man that you obviously have little and biased knowledge of.

Unfortunately for you and those like you, your post speaks of the true nature of so many Christian hearts and Christian doctrine. You attempted to discredit the Dalai Lama in order to make Christ seem better – an ad hominem fallacy – with utterly poor representation of the facts. Please do try and do a better job in the future and avoid such glaring errors as using ad hominem fallacies to support your flawed conclusions.


Brighid

deank

So, Theo, I'll become an architect (close to a carpenter!), and then do nothing for twenty years. Then I'll preach that I am the son of God for about two years. I'll tell everyone that I'll come back to save the world real soon now, and then nail myself to a pole. But...

1) Do I support the laws set forth in Leviticus?
2) Should I really tell them that I AM God? Even if it's in direct violation to the laws of Yahweh, whom I claim to be a part of?
3) Should I punish people for an eternity if they don't worship me?
4) What if God's people don't accept me? How do I handle David's ancestors if they're stupid enough to think I'm not God?
5) Most importantly, how do I get all that money Pat Robertson owes me?

Pantera

How would going to Tibet and instantly being flung into jail help the Dalai Lama's cause?

brighid

Theo -

Here's some homework for you - why don't you do some cursory research on the Dalai Lama and his accomplishments, etc. and then make a list and compare them to the things Christ has actually done. Then tell who has actually "done" things and therefore should be set apart from the other.

Brighid

brighid

AH - the lavish life of the Dalai Lama - http://www.dirckhalstead.org/issue9906/lama01.htm

Brighid

Vorkosigan

Originally posted by Theo the Logian:
Michael,
You have taken the time to compile a list of things out of the gospels that can be construed as being ridiculous. A list, probably committed to memory, kept at the ready as "ammo". This implies that you take the claims of Christ seriously. Seriously enough to make an effort to discredit his teachings.

Actually, I never committed any such list to memory. Many of Jesus' actions are either stupid or morally objectionable and, in any case, I have some small knowledge of the gospels which is useful for occasions like this. No need to "memorize" if you know the terrain. One could hardly grow up in the west and not have heard the stories.

I do take Christianity seriously, as I would any major belief system with such a profound influence on our social and cultural history.


So, I look at it as rationalization. I am pretty sure that is how many Christians look at it, but I lack the tact of many of them.

I disagree. I've never felt you were especially tactless. The Text format makes statements seem more blunt than they are or were intended to be.

The underlying principle, here, that I believe you find threatening to your worldview,

I don't find anything "threatening" in the psychological sense, although I believe the right wing of Christianity is threatening in both the civil and bodily sense. Both Bin Laden and Robertson advocate the same overthrow of the current government, and the same kind of society. They differ only on the divinity of Jesus, and I suspect Robertson would grant women a few more property rights.

..... is that IF there was such a person, both human and devine, and therefore our creator, that represented the epitome of all that is good, and made himself a sacrifice for us to ensure our salvation. If their was such a person
the logical conclusion would be to follow him.

No, it would be to slap him upside the head for creating so much suffering. Also, I do not believe Jesus represents "all that is good."

It would take more cojones than most people have to say, "yeah, I believe the Bible, I believe in Christ, I believe in Heaven and Hell, and I don't want to follow Christ because I want to be my own Boss.
I have a lot of respect for people like that.
But they are rare.

<chuckle> Of course they are rare. Think of the cognitive dissonance they'd have to deal with!

On the other end of the spectrum there are people that are Atheists who are more consistent with themselves than your "the existence of Christ as an historical person" denying ilk, and see good within Christianity.

This is pure drivel. Whether Jesus existed has nothing to do with whether there is some good in Christianity. The two are unrelated, since it is the stories that have inspired, not the man himself (about whom we know almost nothing, except for what can definitely said about residents of Palestine for the period). I have always maintained that Christianity is a net evil, not a perfect evil (like Nazism).

... That to me would seem to be the most rational conclusion to draw from Christianity, If there truly were no God.
I mean it obviously is an institution that serves some positive function for our society or it wouldn't have survived so long and contributed so much to western civilization.

You mean like organized crime? How about slavery? What about Monarchy? And authoritarianism? They've got long pedigrees too.

This is not to deny any positive contributions, merely to put paid to the idea that something must make positive contributions in order to survive.

In there rationality, even if Jesus did not exist, how could attempting to emulate, a person who represents the essence of good, be a bad thing ?

If he represented the essence of good, that would be a good thing. But there are some problems with your view:

First, Jesus does not represent the essence of good. That is a subjective judgement, at best. Would you torture animals and make them cast themselves into the sea?

Second, Christians also follow the teachings in other parts of the OT and NT, so the behavior of Jesus is only part of the foundation. So nobody is out there emulating Jesus.

Third, what we know of Jesus is sketchy, so nobody can be said to be emulating him.

If there is no God, than any goodness these followers of His can generate, by trying to emulate him, is generated by the inherent goodness of mankind. A humanist idea, if I ever heard one.

I totally agree.

Picking through passages of mud and spittle to try to portray Christ in a ridiculous light is an attempt to avoid the obvious question: "Why don't you follow Him?"

No, it was a response to your childish insinuation that I feel threatened by Jesus' words and deeds, when what I feel is amusement and pity for the man and his followers, mixed with fear of their bloodthirstiness and authoritarianism, and horror at their long history of killing each other and non-Christians.

Michael

Layman

Wasn't Ghandi jailed? Didn't that help his cause?

Jesus was caught and executed. That did wonders for his cause.

Anyway, I don't doubt his sincerity in wanting his nation freed.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Layman ]

bw

uncle_onion

To answer your original question, I think it is probably the same way the birth of Hercules is dated.