Ok, the whole thing was a quote. He closed quotation marks at the end of the first paragraph and didn't reopen them. Still, if there are points in the post that you disagree with, list them. Simply saying that others have debated this is an appeal to authority.

I did not use the " marks correctly. SORRY! The reason I posted this is just to try to get some of the thumpers to think, not just accept. Most Christians think what they are taught and never dig much deeper, if at all. And yes I know that is true because I am married to one, my buddies are pastors, our friends are Chrsistians, and I "came to" my senses 5 classes before graduating from seminary.

It is hard to be a skeptic when you measure all things against a belief that is firmly imbedded. If one looks at everything through a colored lense (Bible lense), then everything is distorted and the real color cannot be seen - that is how it is for religious people. Christians cannot see the truth because they are trying to prove the Bible true at the expense of truth.

Apologists chide skeptics and scientists for changing their positions, while scientists and skeptics look for what is true and adjust their positions as new evidence comes to light. We can admit when we are wrong and grow, Christians cannot.

Big D, I'm assuming you live in or around the Big D (i.e. Dallas). I also live in the area.

What seminary did you go to? Dallas Theological Seminary? Southern Methodist University? Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary? The one in Waco that I can't remember at the moment? I'm just curious.

Frankly, I'm surprised that you would come to this conclusion 5 classes away from graduating. You seem to imply that the more you learned, the more atheistic/agnostic you became. Are you really saying that those who finish seminary are simply blind to what you see as "the facts" (even those going on to get their doctorates)?

I, personally, do not believe that Christians turn any more of a blind eye to problems than atheists/agnostics. There are "problems" on both sides of the fence that are not easily overcome. Ultimately, you have a faith of sorts whichever world-view you choose. But then I'm waxing philosophical and that's another forum...

Ish

As I studied more and learned more, the apparent inconsistancies and problems kept coming up. Those who do not want to "see" them do so out of fear (sometimes.) An example: One of my fellow classmates, when we were studying the exodus and confronted by the logistical impossiblities (stop that, I won't listen to "All things are possible . . LOL) The student just through up his hands and said " Why don't we just worry about speading the gospel and following God's word instead of questioning anything?" He was upset and later would not broach the subject. If one wants to prove the gospel at all cost and cannot take the position that the Bible may not be the word of God, then the apologetical back flips start. It is amazing apologists have to try so hard to correct a contradiction. Most of them are very embarressing to anyone who can think - i.e. Satan made David take the census versus God made David take the census. The typical comeback is that God allowed Satan to make David take the census. Pretty weak and no evidence. Shouldn't it mean what it says and say what it means? Apparently not! ( I know, I'm spiritually blind si I cannot discern spiritual things! NOT!) But what an excellent device to help keep people in the cult. Gotta run, will check back later.

Genesis 2:17, Revised Standard Edition.

I don't particularly want to get into another argument on the truth of the exodus, but what specific "impossibilities" are you refering to here?

Hello all first of all. I'm new to this arena of debate. But I like it a lot. Anyway, as far as the free will argument goes, I want to try to give a theological explanation that I think many could possibly agree with (or not) (by the way, I am an agnostic). Anyway, as far as the human is concerned, he/she has free will to do as he/she pleases. This (in my opinion) has absolutely nothing to do with God at all. However, as far as (the Xian) God is concerned, there is no such thing as 'free will'. If God knows everything and created everything, then the human can only do (by definition of the God we're discussing) what this God created him/her to do (this means anything good or evil that happens is the result of God's will). There is no free will with an (or at least this) all-knowing creator. It is inconsistent. I guess I would understand the argument better if the theist (ie- Christian) would use this explanantion instead of trying to convince others that free will exists with an all-knowing deity. It cannot. It just simply doesn't work.

ps- if any theist are going to answer this, please give at least one argument WITHOUT referring to Biblical passages.

Ish: I, personally, do not believe that Christians turn any more of a blind eye to problems than atheists/agnostics. There are "problems" on both sides of the fence that are not easily overcome. Ultimately, you have a faith of sorts whichever world-view you choose. But then I'm waxing philosophical and that's another forum...

Many Christians appear to think that non-Christians are just as biased as they are. They also seem to think that non-Christians have to have just as much "faith" in aburdities as the Christians do. Those Christians are wrong on both counts.


rodahi

Yup.

Yup.

Nope. Nope.


In all seriousness, I've seen every bit as much historical truth twisting from some non-Christians. I've seen some non-Christians stretch translations every bit as far in the opposite direction. I've seen some non-Christians make assumptions against the existence of the supernatural based only on their life-experiences and knowledge. I've even seen some non-Christians whom it baffles to think that they might actually have some level of bias within themselves!

Sorry this is so off-topic, I'll stop here.

Ish

P.S. - BigD, I'm still curious what seminary you went to, unless you don't want to say. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Ish (edited June 06, 2001).]

Hi Tercel,
I guess I won't post this type of thing here anymore.(I'll put it in philosophy). And thanks to Rodahi for allowing me to use this thread (after all, I'm a novice at both the use of these threads and at debate). But I'll learn. I saw this argument coming earlier in the discussion, but I'll try to stick to the topic from now on.
Anyway, let me set the meaning of the terms I'm using:
1. will- a choice of one having authority or power (from the Webster dic.)
2. God- the Christian construct (Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, etc.)
3. "free" (as in free will)- having, in no way, any pre-known truth to what happens; natural flow of events; basically, no cost has been paid before it is taken (seems impossible with this Christian God, being that it is all-knowing and created everything, but anyway)

OK, now that my terms are on the table, let me try again. I have a problem with your #1.
That is exactly like comparing apples and oranges. How does human (finite) will compare to God's (infinite) will? (I am not saying that human shouldn't have morales, but I am saying that God created everything and God knows everything, therefore, man can't do anything outside of that which he/she was created and known by God to do.)


"I would say it is God's will that we love him, do good etc. It is also God's will that we think for ourselves and be able to choose voluntarily."

Well, the problem I see with this is that 1. God created everything (meaning everything has a certain design and can only do what the Creator designed it to do) and 2. God knows everything (this also being interchangeable with Pre-destiny; but it basically means that man cannot do anything outside of what God allows/already knows). As far as human 'free will' being God's will, if this is true, then whatever the theist/agnostic/atheist does is the will of God. God's will (this has to include design) will always predispose itself onto our lives; therefore, we are really living out a script. So I don't see any free will except for that of God, which is not ours.

Ok, for your #2, when did I say God knew everything in time? That would contradict it's omniscience. As far as God would be concerned, there would be no such thing as time. I just said that God knew everything before it happened. Humans live in time, not God. God knows everything, but the human lives. In our terms, it knows things in time; however, in it's terms, there isn't any time.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to say. I still hold the opinion that God has set a predestiny for man, and therefore, man can only fulfill that destiny which God put in place. Thanks for the argument Tercel. I look foward to continuing this and others with you (and other people).

PS- Earlier I said make at least one argument without using the Bible, so you've done that now. Feel free to fire away if you want.