-DM-

There is nothing whatsoever in these verses about what was allegedly in Abel's or Cain's heart. This is just so much ad-hoc BS.

---------

With regard to your so-called explanations for the inconsistencies in the creation stories (note that I call them "inconsistencies," not "contradictions" in my articles), there is no explanation that truly works to explain these inconsistencies other than the fact that there are two creation stories from two different authors here and they have been rather clumsily conflated into one by a later redactor. The first story (which is actually the later of the two) begins at GE 1.1 and runs through GE 2.3; the second story (which is actually the earlier of the two) begins at GE 2.4 and runs through GE 2.21.

The vocabulary used by these two different authors is sufficiently different that they can be identified here and elsewhere in Genesis, thus accounting for many of the inconsistencies. Even the Hebrew used to designate "God" is different. The first uses elohim (God) and the second uses yahweh elohim (Lord God).

Whole books have been written about this. One that I recommend is The Two Creation Stories in Genesis by James S. Forrester-Brown

You indicate a misunderstanding of the word "atheist." An atheist lacks faith that there is a god or gods. (Some atheist deny the existence of a god or gods, others merely have no belief in--lack faith--in the existence of a god or gods.) It takes no faith at all to simply lack faith in a god. Nor does it necessarily take faith to disbelieve in the existence of god. Rather it takes faith to believe when there is insufficient evidence, and that is exactly the case when it comes to belief in gods, especially when it comes to belief in the existence of specific gods such as the "God" of the Bible.

--Don--

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Donald Morgan ]

Seeker of the Truth

Donald,

Looks like there is some misunderstanding here.

I found your website first and end with this forum, and I saw the webaddress has the same name, so I thought this is all part of your website, and users of this forum all know about it.

But if that is not the case, thanks for pointing it out.

I would be happy to add your webaddress to the original posting.

From your email address, are you one of the administrators too ?

Thank you for your suggestion too on using a link, another member Kosh also suggested the same. And I had email exchanges with Larry, one of the administrators who taught me how to.

The thing is it is being done already, I don't know how to undo the operation.

It would be a big help if you can do it for me and use a link instead of quoting all these verses. I am hopeless at computer operations. (Actually, I only bought my present computer 3 weeks ago and start learning how to use the internet.)

Even, I myself is starting to get tire of scrolling down those long pages to get to the end before of the post.

Seeker

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Seeker of the Truth ]

-DM-

Seeker:

I don't really have a website (or my own, that is). My material appears on the Secular Web in the Library. This discussion board is part of the Secular Web.

Note that it says "Administrator" under my name at the top left of my posts.

Undo what operation?

We were all "newbies" at one time, so I understand what you are up against. To have gotten this far in just three weeks is commendable.

--Don--

Seeker of the Truth

Donald,

My 'Undone' means posting again and putting the URL to replace the Bible verses. I see that has been done already. So, many thanks.

By the way, can you tell me what is the difference between a moderator and an administrator, and why do some postings have a moderator whereas some don't ?

I am still gropping around the internet ( just found out the proper term is surfing).

Too old at surfing anymore, but surfing on the internet ! Sounds so young and energetic. And I like those Graemlins that you have too !

By the way, I am still shopping around for a printer with my limited budget. So many brands on the market. A scanner would be a nice-to-have item too. I would welcome any suggestions that readers may have on these items.

Seeker

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Seeker of the Truth ]

sailor74

Truthseekar wrote.Sailor please wake up before theres no reason left in your brain, that’s how thay want you, stupified.

I agree with you truth seekar for the most part, but im trying to show you, that there are some things in the bible that are useful, take whats good and chunk the rest, is all.

And some of the allegorical stories show how to keep the mind, so you can benefit the most from the life you have.

It is true that you become what you think about the most, the thoughts you hold in your subconscious mind, some how materialize in physical manifestation. It is done to as you believe (think).

And the bible teaches to guard your thoughts and keep your mind from the carnal or lower nature, in this way you can become the person you want be.

Because you are the captain of your fate, the master of your destination, you are the producer, director and editor of your own movie (life). By the nature of what you hold in you SUBCONSCIOUS MUND. These are psychology facts.


edited by danny.

Ron Garrett

Truthseekar posted:

Listen to yourself equating the shedding of blood with righteousness. My Kroger butcher must be the most righteous man alive. Do you ever listen to yourself and how stupid that sounds?

You are only parroting the same tired pulled-out-of-your-backside-without-a-lick-of-contextual-support crap that I used to peddle in apologetics classes at the church. You are reciting mere assertions, and there are numerous and contradictory ones all over out there, that were created to explain an apparent arbitrary rejection of Cain by Yahweh.

If you are going to study the bible, and I see no evidence you have, learn to deal with what it says, not what you'd like it to say or what some commentator has said. It says God had no regard for the sacrifice and says nothing about Cain's heart! Cain gave the first fruits of his field the same as Abel gave the first fruits of his flock. If righteousness were the key then no sacrifice of any kind would be acceptable since according to the Apostle Paul's Letter to the Romans:
Though of course scripture copntradicts this elsewhere.


If you are really interested in the Law of Moses you might read it and its verse upon verse about meat offerings.

As to why I "lost my faith", it's because I found my common sense and decided to quit being a simpleton accepting a bunch of ridiculous ancient fairy tales as though they were the manual of the universe. Free at last, free at last, thanks God, for nothing, I'm free at last!

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

truthseekar

Dquote:donald Morgan
--------------------

There is nothing whatsoever in these verses about what was allegedly in Abel's or Cain's heart. This is just so much ad-hoc BS.

---------



Donald,

it apears as though you only read my first post ?
In this posts I make assumptions bassed on my understanding but if you read some of my other posts in this thread on cain and abel you would see I do use the genesis story to explain my asumptions biblicly, wether the book is true or not that is what it says.


quote: ron,
---------------------------------------
Cain gave the first fruits of his field the same as Abel gave the first fruits of his flock. If righteousness were the key then no sacrifice of any kind would be acceptable
----------------------------------------

ron,
can you please show me were cain gave his FIRST fruit and then read my posts and you will see I have well used the genesus story to explain my case on this.

2
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

ron, as a father of 4 my self this is a typical situation with god in place of a father and the story reads VERY SIMPLY about two sons , one with sin at the door and one with a desire to please his father and his fathers obvious reaction in that he receaved the gift from abel and cain did not the same , what the law rights about sacrifice was not always about the sacrifice of animals but also of the grain of the feild.

I became a christian as I had an experience with god when I was athiest ( near death ) I became a christian 12 yrs ago (3years after this) but as you have said ron , I no longer call myself a christian for the same reason as you but I never lost my faith in god and was a fervent athiest , like my dad until 20 yrs old , when some undeniable facts (only fact to me offcourse,so as not to start anything) with god that saved my life and has been with me ever since since, so did you never no god in all your church experience??? , that is a great shame and I blame them ( the church of lies).

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: truthseekar ]

-DM-

[I had previously said: "There is nothing whatsoever in these verses about what was allegedly in Abel's or Cain's heart. This is just so much ad-hoc BS."]

The fact of the matter is that I had read several of your posts, including those where you explained your assumptions. Nothing about the explanation for your assumptions changes the fact that there is nothing whatsoever in the verses in question about what was allegedly in Abel's or Cain's heart. Thus my opinion about your assumptions is unchanged.

Keep in mind that one of the most basic principles of Bible exegesis is to not take away from the text what is there nor to read into the text what is not there. Fanciful assumptions about what might have been in the heart of Cain or Abel to "explain" what appears to be the arbitrariness of "God" do nothing, really, to shed light on the truth of the matter.

--Don--

Grumpy

True, DM, there is nothing in there about Cain's heart. But Gen. 4:7 does say "If, etc." As in, if Cain's sacrifice had been good, the God would have accepted it. God didn't accept it, so what are we to make of Cain?

Granted, it would have been easier for God (or the narrator) to come right out and say, "Cain made his sacrifice reluctantly, thus it was not suitable."

For that matter, before the chapter 4 in Genesis, is there any indication that God is placated by offerings of meat or produce? Where did Adam's boys get such a crazy idea? And if the nature of the sacrifice was immaterial (i.e. God doesn't care if it's meat or grain), then why does the text specify what is offered? Especially when it should be stating the attitudes of the supplicants?

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Grumpy ]

truthseekar

Grumpy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(i.e. God doesn't care if it's meat or grain), then why does the text specify what is offered? Especially when it should be stating the attitudes of the supplicants?
------------------------------------------


grumpy,
the text specifys the offering as it was from there labour and therefore makes it a good gift ( tell me I`m spekulating again) and it states the way in which thay sacrifice ( one with the first fruit fat, and the other with not much effort at all) and this is an expresion of there attributes and attitudes ( dreaming again). Thats what I get from the story.
Like any other book reads , don`t you guy`s read , don`t you picture what your reading even if it were history not fanticy , or I now , Your athiests so it doesn`t matter what I say You won`t see reason because you guys are yust like the fundys, denie every thing and clam everything . the debunkers, that would be a more accourate name for those expressing athiisim, in your persicution of christians you athiests have become exactly like the fundamental christian , stupid!