uncle_onion

Carrying on with my thread about the 70 weeks of daniel,I am here inviting comments on Luke 3:15.It seems here that the Jews were expecting a messiah. could this have been because they had worked out the 70 year "prophecy" themselves?

UO

ex-preacher

Clearly, many first century Jews were expecting a Messiah. So were second century Jews. So are many Jews today. Whether any 1st century Jews had "worked out" the Daniel prophecy is something I've never heard of. Remember, also, Luke's gospel is not an objective, first-hand source on what the Judean Jews in AD 27 were expecting. He has an agenda.

uncle_onion

but WHY were they expecting a messiah. I am expecting a letter tomorrow because I have been told that it should arrive tomorrow. So what made the Jews expect a messiah?

UO

uncle_onion

Has anyone an answer to this question please?

UO

Muad'Dib

It's not meaningful to talk about the Jews as a whole expecting a messiah, let alone the same sort of messiah. A few undoubtedly were, just as today a scattering of Christian groups look for the second return of Christ "any moment now." (Edit to add: this is probably an imperfect analogy since most do hold that Christ will return at some point; that may or may not have been the case with 1st-century Jews' expectations of a messiah.)

Remember, the term "Messiah" was not used to refer just to a single, unique person; it was also applied to prophets, priests, some kings, and even some of the vessels in the temple. It was used to refer to Cyrus of Persia in the OT prophets, for example.

Also consider the following:

The OT apocrypha contains no references to a messiah-deliverer figure.

The OT pseudepigrapha from the 4th century BCE to the 1st century contains at most five references, and some of these are problematic.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, documents concerning the first-century Qumran community mention such a figure only a handful of times.

In the entire works of Josephus, who goes into great detail on the belief of first century Jews, he never mentions an expectation of a messiah. Not even once.

So given the evidence we have, it's extraordinarily improbable that most Jews in the first century were expecting an imminent messiah. This is admittedly an argument from silence, but given the vast amount of documentary evidence we have from that period, if there were a general expectation of some divine deliverer-figure, we would expect many, many more references to it.

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: Muad'dib ]

Amos

Only Jews that are "pregnant with dispair" expect a messiah. Joseph was one such Jew and therefore returned to his home place for deliverance.

Amos

uncle_onion

"The OT apocrypha contains no references to a messiah-deliverer figure."

I have read some where that Christ "fulfilled" at least 70 "prophecies" when he became alive? I will try to find it.

UO

Kosh

So they claim.
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../prophecy.html http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...rophecies.html

Muad'Dib

Surely these prophecies would allegedly come from the OT proper rather than the apocrypha, though?

uncle_onion

thanks for correcting me.

UO