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Old 08-31-2001, 01:40 AM   #21
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i'm going to give you one more clue as to how to read the bible.

The wicked king trys to kill the child.

This is an ageless story. When Krishna was born, the wicked king Kansa tried to kill him and authored the slaughter of the innocents. When Zoroaster was born, the wicked king tried to have him trampled by horses. Zoroaster was saved by a white horse. The story of jesus and the wicked king herod, is a contiuation of the ancient mythos. The carnal EGO (satan) in all of us will do anything to kill out the children of 2 years old. The number two means the union of body and soul, lower mind and higher mind, if you will. All of the new THOUGHTS coming from the devine mind are the children of 2 years. The child is threatened by the EGO, and whwnever possible the lower mind (carnal) will find an excuse to stay away from your meditation.

do you see a shoe fit here.

Always look for the deeper symbolic meaning of the bible scriptures, and you will find real spiritual truths. why the writers of the bible did this. not really sure. may-be to make us think. But taken literally nothing makes sense. but understanding the true story has meaning for all.

its all ancient greek mythology.

so who were these greeks that gave us the foundations of civilization: medicine, philosophy, astronomy and the friggin bible coded in such a way the average person can not understand it, at all.You tell me.

edited by danny
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Old 08-31-2001, 03:40 AM   #22
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It’s all ancient Greek mythology.

So who were these Greeks that gave us the foundations of civilization: medicine, philosophy, astronomy and the frigid bible coded in such a way the average person can not understand it, at all. You tell me.

Although I do agree that Greek mythology has dramatically changed the belief systems of the ancients (from before Greece was even a twinkle in the earths eye.)

And although Greece civilization has a big influence on modern thinking it is far from being the cradle of civilization and infact is still in the cradle compared to those who are responsible for the cradle of civilisation i.e. Sumer, Babylon and Egypt.

Greece is a baby compared to them.

I also don`t have a problem understanding the bible at all (although I can see you do )and if I were to chose a spiritual path I would steer clear of the frauds I have been involved in over the years like fundy Christians, budists, I even tried sy babe and read the course in miracles and a return to love (both new age books) and dwelved into them for a while and I’ve got to be honest sailor and say that thay all proved frauds and offered nothing but religious crap with no truth and when I was young I tried palmistry, astrology and numerology not to mention tarot and medium encounters so I would say I have looked around for this light you talk about and all I see is the fact that it only comes on when you get to the truth and all these religions have proved false and from my observations the most pathetic religions of them all are Hinduism , crissa and Muslims . I would only find darkness and lies there I`m shore as it smells of darkness from a mile away.

So my religion, my light and dark is if you believe in a lie you are in darkness but if you find the truth, you have found the light.

My religion is truth and truth will shed light on the facts which is allot more than any thing you have offered me, your explanations on the bible don`t shed any light on anything except to say that the light shows you don`t understand a thing about the bible.

Threes not a church going Christian that would believe in this kind of spirituality or theology as thay put there faith in god
Through the crucifixion and resurrection and the promises made to them of the resurrection and there for there religion is very much one of faith (thinking), sounds like your religion wants to put faith in nothing, you don`t even want to think of anything so I suppose that leaves you write were thay want you, dazed and stupid so thay can manipulate you ( ye, I no how it works, been there).

Humanity is renoun for being deluded into stupefying religions all throu time.

Sailor please wake up before theres no reason left in your brain, that’s how thay want you, stupified. I`m not meaning to have a go at you, It`s just my way of trying to wake people up to what thay believe and brother it sounds like your in allot of trouble so I’d fling that crap meditation thay got you on and start think about SOMETHING, anything ,but sailor you got to live and your theology sounds like your one of those, I`m so spiritually turned on (that I`m earthly ,not hear) but the problem is that the people I now like that are so worldly turned of to the point were thay don`t live at all but meditate until there dead (even isolating themselves in a monastery).

Sailor, if these people of theses spiritual guru’s are so enlightened how come thay are just sitting on there self made thrones doing not a dame thing to help mankind except to teach him to worship them. These people don`t realy produce much and thay seem a little retarded, is that all that lazy sitting around doing nothing and thinking about nothing, so how can these teachers teach me anything if all thay practise is to meditate on nothing all the time. not to mention ,I have 4 children , what could thay teach me about child rearing , nothing as thay have never been married or had children so what can these people teach me .It`s them that needs to get enlightened to what lifes realy all about (and I can tell you it`s not sitting in a temple meditating about nothing all your life celibrit just to die and then that’s it .
Nooo, thay can`t shed light when there in gross darkness themselves..

Guys like the deli lama and sy babe and others.

Sailor, please for your sake stop believing such crap and go and live your life the best you no how because when it`s done you will be nothing, you will be dead, so, please dice these stupid idiotic beliefs. YOU WILL BE NOTHING WHEN YOUR DEAD SO LEAVE NOTHINGNESS IN THE GRAVE AND LIVE BECAUSE YOUL~E HAVE PLENTY OF CHANCE TO DO AND BE NOTHING THEN.

Now faith in god. Theres a light of truth that makes all religions a joke.

Does that shed any light on anything fore you , anything you can meditate on in this or are you going to go for enother session of scrubing everything up there .

Forgive my arrogance , I`m not shore how else to deal with this as I could beat around the bush and imply things but me , I`ll just tell you what I think, more honest that way even though it brings much persucution. sorry
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Old 08-31-2001, 10:59 AM   #23
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Truthseekar, you puzzle me. First of all because you spell like George Patton. Second of all, you confuse me with one post where you seem to regard the scripture and with the next you seem not to.

(By the way, I left the pastorate a few years ago and have subsequently embraced atheism by default, primarily because all that I'd been taught in support of Christianity being the sole source of revelation and divine truth turned out to be irrational nonsense as neither is apparently available.)

The answer to your question regarding the sacrifices of Cain and Abel, Cain is regarded apparently because of Yahweh's desire for blood and meat. The smell of meat burning on the altar is always described as a sweet smelling savor to the Lord. Yahweh likes Bar-B-Q as we one time Texans would say.

In all the sacrificial rites of the Old Testament the best meat animal got the most attention from God. If you will also note, after the animal is sacrificed on the altar the priests get the meat for their supper. This has led many to assume that the notion of a God that must be fed arises in primitive religions because feeding animals is all we see around us as primitives. Once we are no longer primitives we find other reasons to continue to feed God, such as sacrifices for our sins. Thus it's fair to say that much of the Levitical rites of scrifice had the secondary if not primary purpose of feeding the priesthood who were forbidden to own grazing and farm land as had been allocated to the other tribes. Indeed it is likely that all sacrifice, if not originating as a way for priests to get fed, eventually became that. Today in churches the offering, now money instead of food, is still how priests get fed.

This desire for blood sacrifice carries over into the New Testament with the death of Jesus as "the Lamb of God" as a sin offering for the world, an atonement for sin.

Hebrews 9 explains:
v11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
So as you can see, the shedding of blood has a special place in Christian theology and soteriology. So Christian and non-Christian scholars alike agree Cain's sacrifice was deemed superior because it sacrificed the life-blood of an conscious, breathing animal, which is different from a sheaf of wheat that has nothing to lose. Hope that helps.
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Old 08-31-2001, 05:31 PM   #24
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posted by Seeker of the Truth:
Ron comments on Seekar says it all, as I had said. (Notice, I am Seeker of the truth and 'Seekar' is another person).
It might be prudent for one or both of you to change nicknames -- as you yourself seem to have become confused. In my above post, I directed one set of comments to 'seekar, and a final remark to you, SotT. Thus, you replied to my rebuttal of 'seekar as if I was contesting your point -- when in fact I was agreeing with you!

You may wish to lurk a bit more before posting again. I don't post on all the threads, but if you read enough you'll see that I am an atheist, not prone to post lengthy Bible verses to uphold their validity.

Now, as for the OTHER guy...

posted by truthseekar:
Why because it was a blood sacrifice???? , I don`t think so as it depended on the one working with anamals to give an animal sacrifice and those of the field to offer that up (as still done by many cultures through time).
This was were blood sacrifices started as god showed his approval to able for his FAITHFULNESS to god, not because of a blood sacrifice but the sacrifice of praise was in abels heart but not cane’s heart
So able and his line used blood sacrifice to please god and then the blood sacrifice becomes very relevant to the reason for god using it as a tool to save man by abels elegance. (Sorry am I speculating to much for you pastor, well I`ll try stick to scripture for you.)
So this is were I get my theories from
Would it be rude to call the above quote 'badly spelled gibberish'?

The relevant portion is in italics -- as your lack of punctuation might otherwise obscure it. Put bluntly, you continue to assert that there was something different about Cain's "heart" -- when the verses in question refer to no such thing. Think again: is this something you're reading, or are you leaning on your own imagination?

Notice, also, that I excluded Gen. 4:2 for the sake of brevity -- as the subsequent verses make quite plain that Abel was a herder and Cain a farmer. Including that verse doesn't strengthen your case one bit.

In closing, brothers and sisters, remember God's wisdom from Proverbs 15:2, "The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness." Man, there is a lot of pouring going on in this thread.
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Old 09-01-2001, 07:38 AM   #25
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Did it cross your mind to think of the fact that Abel was the first to ever sacrifice an animal and please god this way as a result of his righteousness, and that this is were all the stuff your talking about started? God approved of Abel and therefore his way of sacrifice pleased god and became tradition for mans expression of wining gods approval by the sacrifice for there sin and offerings Of our first fruits. (According to the bible anyway), Ron, no wonder you lost your faith.

Didn`t you read gen 4:7, that makes it real clear that the problem with Cain was not the sacrifice but the sin in his heart.

What’s wrong with you people, read the dam thing, I don`t believe it necessarily but I do no what it says, which seems to be void of you
people?????????????????????????????????????????? /

And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin Leith at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Grumpy, forgive my spelling, I`m dyslexic and I`m actually doing well.
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Old 09-01-2001, 10:33 AM   #26
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dont you ladies have something better to do than argue over the bible?
Its a waste of the beautiful gift of life to argue over stupid myths.
(I dont believe that life is a gift - I just like the phrase)
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Old 09-01-2001, 11:44 AM   #27
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Everyone here seems to be missing the point.

The shedding of blood and sacrifices of animals, its all symbolic its an ALLEGORY.

Now if you want to believe it literally then the bible makes no sense and is irrelevant.

but symbolicaly interpretated, it makes sense.

The blood in the bible represents the life force in each one of us, and slaughtering of animals, is ruling over your carnal nature, the animals are represented as your lower nature. Havnt you heard some one calling another an animal for causing a despicable act or crime.

It was no different in olden times. Jesus born in a manger why? because animals are present, you are born with animal nature, and as you grow older, hopefully you develop your spiritual side and kill your lower nature the carnal side, or left side if the brain function, symbolically of course.

Im sorry if no one gets this stuff. Its the reality of the bible.

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Old 09-01-2001, 01:07 PM   #28
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Everyone here seems to be missing the point.
The shedding of blood and sacrifices of animals, its all symbolic .

danny ,
my point is that the shedding of blood was symbolic of abels love and comitment to god.

how can I get what your saying when you imagine simgolic metiphores for the whole bible, wake up, the bible (wether true or false ) reads extreemly clearly for the most part and you can`t understand that as you think this book is symbolic , which I supose you would do if you couldn`t understand it.
it`s pritty clear to me danny , why, what is it that you cant understand???????

jaliet ,
were did you come from??? do you usually pop up in the middle of peoples conversations and have such a pathetic in put , then I suppose that is a traite of a woman isn`t it juliet, to not think about much, lol,
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Old 09-01-2001, 06:09 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Seeker of the Truth:
Interesting Bible Verses (for your information)

This maybe a long list to some readers. But if I break them up into groups of 2-3 and post them up separately, it would mean hundreds of new postings. (not sure if the owner of this forum would like that).
As far as I am concerned, you can post as many quotes from my material as you wish provided that:
1.) you identify the source (i.e., provide an attribution), and
2.) the reason for the quotes is so that you can then respond to, critique, and make comments about each quote.

They are put down here in full to allow readers of this forum to have the choice to choose whichever ones they find interesting for further discussions.
The readers of this forum can do that without quoting if you simply provide a link to the material. If you quote, then you need to do so for the purpose of your OWN comments regarding those quotes. Otherwise you open yourself to the possibility of copyright violations and, at the very least, criticism for inappropriate behavior.

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Old 09-01-2001, 06:41 PM   #30
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Originally posted by truthseekar:
seeker of truth (not),
I didn't even need to open a bible to see that you have missunderstood [sic] and misquoted many scriptures in there contexts.
Any quote of Scripture verses can be said to be "out of context" unless everything relevant is also quoted. On the other hand, whole sermons are often built on a single verse or a few related verses. When ministers and evangelists take scripture out of context, as long as it is in accord with what they believe (or with standard Christian dogma) there seems to be no problem. But let a Bible critic do the same, and it is guaranteed that the apologists will be right there with their "out of context" dismissal of any criticism.

so , as a result I never went much further than this note of yours:
(Note 1: Every word of God cannot prove true if God deceives anyone at all; the Bible cannot be trusted if the scribes falsify the word)
That wasn't his word, it was mine. And whether you went any further or not is irrelevant to the truth of the matter. If the scribes (the teachers) falsify the word, then what people learn about the alleged word of "God" cannot be trusted. The scribes aren't the only problem, however.

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets.
2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them).
EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)

These little-known "facts" from the Bible mean that what the Bible says about "God" is open to question on the basis of those alleged "facts" if for no other reason (and there are, of course, other reasons as well).

Tell me is there something particulare [sic] were the bible makes a real mistake. I would be interested in that but leave the propaganda out.
There are plenty of places where the Bible makes real mistakes. If you would look at the material in question--particularly the Absurdities and the Inconsistencies, you would find many such examples.

quote :seeker of truth
GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

considering god recieved [sic] abels [sic] offering which was the first fruit of his belongings and he gave the best of what he had to god with all of his heart. god receaved [sic] this gladdly [sic] but cain [sic] only gave of what seems to be not the best or first fruit of his belongings and he was reluctant in that and didnt [sic] give it with all of his heart and in doing so it wasn't recieved [sic] by god in the same way as abel [sic] so He became jealeous [sic] and killed his brother and then god came putting him on the spot by asking his were abouts even though he new as he states after that his blood is crying to him and goes on to say that if cain [sic] would have done good and not evil (jealousy,envy and covertiousness [sic] not to mention murder of a brother)then wouldn't god have shown favour on cain [sic] also.
This is a typical, ad hoc how-it-might-have-been "explanation" to hopefully explain away a disturbing aspect, namely his arbitrariness, of the "God" character, but unfortunately for the sake of the veracity of your scenario, it cannot be supported on the basis of what is in the story in GE 4. GE 4 itself says nothing of the sort nor does it even give us a clue that what you claim is the case might be involved.

Next time you engage in speculation of this sort, you might want to point out that you are just making it up.

god is no respector [sic] of persons but he is a respector [sic] of those that do good and anyone on earth can achieve this , it`s not just for gods favorites but rather the way of gods favour and any man can attain to that favor without biase [sic] from god.
I didn't open a bible for this and am not claming [sic] that the bible is authentic but I`m clamming that you have clammed [sic] so much garbage that you couldn't possably [sic] be seriously searching for the truth or you would have read some of this before just pasted it from were ever or you did put it together, which means you now the book and are purposly [sic] trying to desieve [sic] with it.
You sound like a typical evangelist or apologist, claiming what the Bible claims elsewhere, namely that "God" is no respecter of persons--never mind that what the Bible claims about "God" being no respecter of persons is inconsistent with "God's" behavior as portrayed in the Bible.

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