Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jasin · 10-23-2001, 11:50 PM

This supposed contridiction has been answered read the context and the defintion for the verse! Read the science that explains how it's possible to have a light source that isn't the sun or has anything to do with the sun. Btw one thing thats being overlooking is the defitnion for that word "light" used in Gen 1:4 can be God himself also.

Jasin · 10-23-2001, 11:56 PM

The science I gave about the earth spinning and the earth being 1 AU from the sun is science I gave to explain "heaven to divide night and day". That was an answer for DON on his question about how that it possible.

Please don't mix in my comments or statements on Gen 1:4 with my Comments on Gen 1:14

Jasin · 10-23-2001, 11:58 PM

I have said what needs to be said everyone has been answered. If you have any further questions you are free to email me
Jasyon4Jesus@yahoo.com

God Bless

Jasin · 10-24-2001, 12:03 AM

My faith is strong I don't need proofs, but every time a new fact comes along it simply confirms my faith. [Palmer Joss in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 172.]

Muad'Dib · 10-24-2001, 12:04 AM

Two questions (are you still around?), just to continue the discussion:

1) So what?

You came up with a possible explanation for one apparent inconsistency on Don's list; not everyone thinks your explanation is credible, but I'll leave that for other people to comment on.

Do you plan to address the rest of Don's list?

Coming up with a possible explanation for one out of many textual difficulties hardly makes for a persuasive argument.

2) Just for the record, what are your scientific, linguistic, and theological credentials? What formal scientific training do you have? How about theological training? Have you studied Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, learning the languages themselves rather than learning about them from second- or third-hand sources?

brighid · 10-24-2001, 05:30 AM

Muad'Dib,

Don't you know - he doesn't need dem dare creedentials - he's got GAWD on his side! Puhraissssssseee JEBUS!!!

Brighid

brighid · 10-24-2001, 06:12 AM

Jasin,

It is within the realm of possibility that a student studying in ISRAEL who is proficient in HEBREW might know a little bit more about it than either you or the biased translators of the KJV!

Just a few thoughts for Quad Whore - good Christian name by the Way ...

So god can't create light as great as the sun? Shut up.”

Do you realize that you are on an INFIDEL forum? God, as far as any available evidence is concerned has created nothing. There is a book – a very questionable book that says this god created things and we are testing that theory. And certainly I will not shut up.

“Nonsense. There is no reason we should now be able to detect such light.”

Certainly, we can detect such light – please do some research about the Hubble Telescope and science in general. Then please come back to me and tell me exactly how we cannot detect such light.

The Earth would be a fucking Popsicle without the sun or some other similar object. It doesn’t just light up the sky like a night light. It is a dynamic energy source, without which our little planet would not be inhabitable. Take a look at those planets too close to the sun, or too far from the sun to support life. Jasin claims a FIXED LIGHT SOURCE – what fixed light source?

“At the time there was no person around to differentiate anything. So the amount of light is irrelevant.”

But Quadwhore – wasn’t G-O-D there? And isn’t the bible the word of God and he’s telling you things that are just indefensible. How perfect of him!

And it would not matter if there was a person to differentiate day from night and it wouldn’t matter if there were people here NOW to do so – the necessary elements would need to be there to actually make it happen and if there is no sun, or similar celestial object there can be NO LIGHT, NO HEAT or other necessary energy source to make things as they say in the Bible. Where did the light come from? Even the Bible does not say because hmmmmmmm… a bunch of uneducated, superstitious back wood nomads had no clue about the sun, the earth, the moon and the stars – they thought the earth was flat and held up on pillars. Sorry, but that leaves their evidence and “divine revelation” just ever so slightly suspect

Brighid

Muad'Dib · 10-24-2001, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
<STRONG>Muad'Dib,

Don't you know - he doesn't need dem dare creedentials - he's got GAWD on his side! Puhraissssssseee JEBUS!!!</STRONG>

While some theists do behave in this way, Jasin seems to be arguing not that we are godless and therefore wrong, but ignorant: his he has tried to one-up us intellectually rather than spiritually.

My intention in asking for his credentials is to call what I suspect is a bluff: if he himself has no serious scientific training, has not studied Hebrew, and has has only a little experience with theology, then he has no grounds to say that we are ignorant. If (as I suspect) that is the case, then he himself is ignorant of the vast majority of science, Biblical studies, and theology.

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Muad'Dib ]

Mageth · 10-24-2001, 11:14 AM

This post helps illustrate his ignorance on theology:

Quote:

My attitude in no way takes away from the truth! I can careless wether you like opr don't like me and my attitude. I answer to God almighty not you!
Don if you knew anything about whats even in the bible you would know that the bible it's self teaches us to reprove,rebuke and be bold not just love.

He had earlier posted insults such as this:

Now I'm going to sum this up for you idiots cause your ignorance gets in the way of knowing what I'm even talking about or refering to.

This goes way beyond "reprove, rebuke and be bold." Any of us could throw verse after verse at him showing why he is theologically wrong on this. One of my favorites is from Galatians 5:19-26, according to which, IMO, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God based on his actions:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; ... hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, ... and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Magethlaro ]

Fortuna_of_Rome · 10-24-2001, 11:25 AM

After reading through this discussion, I must say that I have to pick my jaw up off of the desk.

The Genesis [Bereshit] creation story is an ancient account of how the world that the ancient saw came to be, told within the knowledge base that they had. Yes, they imagined a flat earth. And yes, they thought the sun and moon and stars were ornaments hung in the firmament. They believed that heaven was up in the sky.

Jasin's problem have just begun, wait till he gets to the part about the water above from the water below and the firmament. I've alway wondered about that one, then it struck me one day, the sky is blue, just like the water of the ocean. I think that is what they were trying to explain.

Clearly, this story is just another in the genre of creation myths that we find in many different civilizations. Maybe this one seems more poignant than the others, but that doesn't change its genre.

Face it, the Biblical literalist's of this world will be forever trying to explain away the inconsistencies and innaccuracies that we will indentify. These pages show just how weak these explanations are.

But to those literalists and believers I would ask, "So what are we to do?". forget all our technology and science and go back to the first century and live nomadic or communal lives under theocratic governments ?
We've already seen what happens to the human condition under theocratic systems [ie The Taliban] and medieval Europe. It results in an oppresive and unjust society.

What would they have us do ?

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10-23-2001, 11:50 PM	#31
Jasin Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 17	This supposed contridiction has been answered read the context and the defintion for the verse! Read the science that explains how it's possible to have a light source that isn't the sun or has anything to do with the sun. Btw one thing thats being overlooking is the defitnion for that word "light" used in Gen 1:4 can be God himself also.

10-23-2001, 11:56 PM	#32
Jasin Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 17	The science I gave about the earth spinning and the earth being 1 AU from the sun is science I gave to explain "heaven to divide night and day". That was an answer for DON on his question about how that it possible. Please don't mix in my comments or statements on Gen 1:4 with my Comments on Gen 1:14

10-23-2001, 11:58 PM	#33
Jasin Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 17	I have said what needs to be said everyone has been answered. If you have any further questions you are free to email me Jasyon4Jesus@yahoo.com God Bless

10-24-2001, 12:03 AM	#34
Jasin Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 17	My faith is strong I don't need proofs, but every time a new fact comes along it simply confirms my faith. [Palmer Joss in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 172.]

10-24-2001, 12:04 AM	#35
Muad'Dib Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 845	Two questions (are you still around?), just to continue the discussion: 1) So what? You came up with a possible explanation for one apparent inconsistency on Don's list; not everyone thinks your explanation is credible, but I'll leave that for other people to comment on. Do you plan to address the rest of Don's list? Coming up with a possible explanation for one out of many textual difficulties hardly makes for a persuasive argument. 2) Just for the record, what are your scientific, linguistic, and theological credentials? What formal scientific training do you have? How about theological training? Have you studied Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, learning the languages themselves rather than learning about them from second- or third-hand sources?

10-24-2001, 05:30 AM	#36
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Muad'Dib, Don't you know - he doesn't need dem dare creedentials - he's got GAWD on his side! Puhraissssssseee JEBUS!!! Brighid

10-24-2001, 06:12 AM	#37
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Jasin, It is within the realm of possibility that a student studying in ISRAEL who is proficient in HEBREW might know a little bit more about it than either you or the biased translators of the KJV! Just a few thoughts for Quad Whore - good Christian name by the Way ... So god can't create light as great as the sun? Shut up.” Do you realize that you are on an INFIDEL forum? God, as far as any available evidence is concerned has created nothing. There is a book – a very questionable book that says this god created things and we are testing that theory. And certainly I will not shut up. “Nonsense. There is no reason we should now be able to detect such light.” Certainly, we can detect such light – please do some research about the Hubble Telescope and science in general. Then please come back to me and tell me exactly how we cannot detect such light. The Earth would be a fucking Popsicle without the sun or some other similar object. It doesn’t just light up the sky like a night light. It is a dynamic energy source, without which our little planet would not be inhabitable. Take a look at those planets too close to the sun, or too far from the sun to support life. Jasin claims a FIXED LIGHT SOURCE – what fixed light source? “At the time there was no person around to differentiate anything. So the amount of light is irrelevant.” But Quadwhore – wasn’t G-O-D there? And isn’t the bible the word of God and he’s telling you things that are just indefensible. How perfect of him! And it would not matter if there was a person to differentiate day from night and it wouldn’t matter if there were people here NOW to do so – the necessary elements would need to be there to actually make it happen and if there is no sun, or similar celestial object there can be NO LIGHT, NO HEAT or other necessary energy source to make things as they say in the Bible. Where did the light come from? Even the Bible does not say because hmmmmmmm… a bunch of uneducated, superstitious back wood nomads had no clue about the sun, the earth, the moon and the stars – they thought the earth was flat and held up on pillars. Sorry, but that leaves their evidence and “divine revelation” just ever so slightly suspect Brighid

10-24-2001, 11:25 AM	#40
Fortuna_of_Rome Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 5	After reading through this discussion, I must say that I have to pick my jaw up off of the desk. The Genesis [Bereshit] creation story is an ancient account of how the world that the ancient saw came to be, told within the knowledge base that they had. Yes, they imagined a flat earth. And yes, they thought the sun and moon and stars were ornaments hung in the firmament. They believed that heaven was up in the sky. Jasin's problem have just begun, wait till he gets to the part about the water above from the water below and the firmament. I've alway wondered about that one, then it struck me one day, the sky is blue, just like the water of the ocean. I think that is what they were trying to explain. Clearly, this story is just another in the genre of creation myths that we find in many different civilizations. Maybe this one seems more poignant than the others, but that doesn't change its genre. Face it, the Biblical literalist's of this world will be forever trying to explain away the inconsistencies and innaccuracies that we will indentify. These pages show just how weak these explanations are. But to those literalists and believers I would ask, "So what are we to do?". forget all our technology and science and go back to the first century and live nomadic or communal lives under theocratic governments ? We've already seen what happens to the human condition under theocratic systems [ie The Taliban] and medieval Europe. It results in an oppresive and unjust society. What would they have us do ?

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