I disagree-I would drop the pen, but only because I chose to. Just because someone knows with certainty that we will do something does not mean we do not choose to do it.

Right. If we do ~A, then God would be wrong. But the fact that we can even CONSIDER ~A is evidence that we have a free will. The fact that God knows perfectly free of doubt which we will do does not remove free will. Biblical prophecy and free-will, then, do not appear to be logically contradictory at all.

James,
See the Tree of Knowledge thread for a recent discussion of free will.

If we can only CONSIDER doing ~A, but we cannot actually DO ~A, and our only possibility for action is A, then we DO NOT have free will. That is, we only have one possible action. Just because a prisoner can CONSIDER walking outside of the jail cell, does not mean that he CAN walk outside the jail cell, and is not FREE.

NPM

NPM, I think I may have identified our problem while I was painting today. Let me know if you disagree.

I think that our opinions differ on who are action is contingent on. You are arguing that because God knows we are going to do action A, we are going to do it. Therefore, we have no free-will. However, the actual case is that we are going to do action A and so God knows it. God's knowledge of our decision is contingent upon our decision, not our decision upon His knowledge. That is, I believe, the central difference in our viewpoints. Because I believe God's knowledge is contingent upon our action, then we certainly can have free-will and Biblical prophecy. The two are entirely free of contradiction.

A problem ... IFF you have an indeterminist view of free-will.

You are probably not suprised that I disagree with you, I do. However, it is not belief in this case that is the problem. The problem happens to be cause and effect. You say that God's knowledge is contingent on us doing action A, but that is not the correct order of events.
Remember, God is supposed to know everything that we will do before we are born. That means God knows if we "choose" A or not ahead of time. Therefore, we cannot do ~A if God knew that we would do A (or vice versa), unless God is not omniscient.
Perhaps God does not follow the normal rules of cause and effect, but this means that God does not follow normal rules of logic, and this argument is moot!
Anyway, it is not my belief that God is omniscient and we have no free will(it is also not my belief that God exists, but humor me here). It is my belief that God is not omniscient and that we do have free will. Why does God have to be omniscient anyway?

NPM



[This message has been edited by Non-praying Mantis (edited June 25, 2001).]

As a "traditional" Christian, it is very easy to refute this argument with the traditional view that God is outside of time. God will not know "before" we do an action. In fact, to speak of "before" and "after" with God, who I believe is outside of time is nonsensical. God merely knows. This still allows for human free-will because He doesn't know "before" we do our action. He merely knows that we do our action. However, I think that your question as to why God HAS to be omniscient is an excellent one. The idea of God's omniscience and what that means has come under review as of late in Christian theology circles. The critique has been led mainly by William Lane Craig....their view, if I understand it correctly, is that God is actually inside of time and that His omniscience consists of knowing every future contingent. In other words, He knows every possibility of the course of all human action. Honestly, I am undecided as to where I stand on this, but both positions allow for a human free-will. I will post later on my thoughts as to why He has to be omniscient. It is an excellent question.

Peace.
pfypher

This doesn't work for me. We as humans are within time and all of our actions take place at a certain time, so I don't see how you can pull the "God is outside of time" card. The question doesn't revolve around God, it revolves around a human action, which must take place in time.

God is omniscient, that means he knows everything.
Tomorrow I will either eat lunch A or lunch B. I don't know which until that time.
God, by his omniscient definition, knows which lunch I will eat.
Is it possible for me to eat the other lunch??

Hi oriecat,
A segment of one of my posts from the recent (and still active but on a tangent) Tree of Knowledge thread:
-Tercel