An excellent book on the subject is Ben Zion Bokser's "Judaism and the Christian Predicament." Following that, one can also pick up Stuart Rosenburg's "The Christian Problem." Or, one can merely go to www.jewsforjudaism.com and read their material or ask them. Finally, if Jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies (providing he even existed), isn't that a valid reason? Stumbling block or common sense?

You imply that those who don't know why Jewish people are not Christians have not read the JC Bible. That is poppycock.

1. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus, a Jew himself, was antagonistic toward his Jewish relatives and neighbors. He had problems BEFORE he was executed.
2. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus considered himself to be superior to other Jews. Who in his right mind would have followed an egotistical troublemaker?
3. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus failed to convince most of the Jewish people that he was truly the "anointed" of Yahweh.

rodahi

[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited June 04, 2001).]

Sorry, that's www.jewsforjudaism.org, not .com. Here's another site by Jews concerning Christian doctrine: http://torah.freeyellow.com/page21.html'


Take care,
Logan

Poppycock? I like that.

Perhaps my imperative "Read the Bible" was a little strong. However, like I said, Paul does give a very strong reason for why many Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah...

1 Cor. 1:22 - 24
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.


So, like I said, it is in Paul. This is also my reason for saying "Read the Bible", because as you see now, it is there. I'm sorry if it came across too strong, but the answers are there for all to read...

Now, the reason that "preaching Christ crucified" was a "stumbling block to Jews" was because of a verse in Deuteronomy. Verse 21:23 says "a hanged man is accursed by God". This was applied by the Jews to crucifixion and is also mentioned in the Mishnah (or the Oral Law).

This is probably the reason for Paul's zealous rejection of Christianity before Jesus appeared to him. Later, Paul explained why it was necessary for Jesus to fall under this "curse":

Gal. 3:10 - 13:
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."


The Bible addresses a lot of your questions. That is why, as a Christian, I do read my Bible.


Huh? "Jesus...was antagonistic toward his Jewish relatives and neighbors"? This is an opinion based on your interpretations of a few hard to understand biblical passages, Rodahi. Jesus' main message was one of love for one's neighbor which he demonstrated constantly. This is made obvious in his healing and exhortation to not just follow the letter of the law but to understand the reasons behind the law.

Huh? Yes, Paul explains quite vividly why Jesus considered himself to be superior to other Jews. Jesus is God.

"Egotistical troublemaker"? This is opinion. Jesus made himself a servant in biblical terms. He washed the disciples' feet, a lowly and demeaning thing at that time. Most of the "trouble" was due to those trying to trap him. What trouble can you find in a man who tells the truth and heals people? Some of the claims that he made can be seen as "egotistical" but only if one denies the truth of what he was saying. Jesus usually made his claims in passing and did not focus on them which hardly seems like "egotists" that I know.

As stated above, I believe Paul does explain why the Jews failed to recognize their awaited Messiah.

Ish


[This message has been edited by Ish (edited June 03, 2001).]

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quote:
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Originally posted by rodahi:
You imply that those who don't know why Jewish people are not Christians have not read the JC Bible. That is poppycock.
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Ish: Poppycock? I like that.

Perhaps my imperative "Read the Bible" was a little strong. However, like I said, Paul does give a very strong reason for why many Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah...

1 Cor. 1:22 - 24
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.


So, like I said, it is in Paul. This is also my reason for saying "Read the Bible", because as you see now, it is there. I'm sorry if it came across too strong, but the answers are there for all to read...

rodahi: So, Jesus relatives and other Jews refused to take him seriously because he was crucified. Obviously, the problem here is Jesus' relatives and neighbors didn't take him seriously BEFORE he was executed.

Ish: Now, the reason that "preaching Christ crucified" was a "stumbling block to Jews" was because of a verse in Deuteronomy. Verse 21:23 says "a hanged man is accursed by God". This was applied by the Jews to crucifixion and is also mentioned in the Mishnah (or the Oral Law).

Again, I referred to the time BEFORE Jesus was executed.

Ish: This is probably the reason for Paul's zealous rejection of Christianity before Jesus appeared to him.

This is conjecture.

Ish: Later, Paul explained why it was necessary for Jesus to fall under this "curse":

Gal. 3:10 - 13:
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Yes, Paul believed in magical curses.

Ish: The Bible addresses a lot of your questions. That is why, as a Christian, I do read my Bible.

I also read the JC Bible. That is why I questioned your statement.


quote:
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Rodahi:
1. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus, a Jew himself, was antagonistic toward his Jewish relatives and neighbors. He had problems BEFORE he was executed.
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Ish: Huh?

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Ish: "Jesus...was antagonistic toward his Jewish relatives and neighbors"? This is an opinion based on your interpretations of a few hard to understand biblical passages, Rodahi.

On the contrary, my statement is based on a straightforward reading of easy to understand text in the NT.

"And rising early, while it was still dark, he went outside and stole away to an isolated place, where he starte praying. Then Simon and those with him hunted him down. When they had found him they say to him, 'They're all looking for you.' But he replies, 'Let's go somewhere else, to the neigboring villages, so I can speak there too, since that's what I came for.'" (Mk. 1:35-38)

This is a clear example of Jesus avoiding those who were looking for him to heal them. Jesus put his desires ahead of those who needed healing.

"Then a leper comes up to him, pleads with him, falls down on his knees, and says to him, 'If you want to, you can make me clean.' Although Jesus was indignant, he stretched out his hand, touched him, and says to him, 'Okay--you're clean!' And right away the leprosy disappeared, and he was made clean. And Jesus snapped at him, and dismissed him curtly with this warning: 'See that you don't tell anyone anything, but go, have a priest examine (your skin). Then offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as evidence (of your cure).'" (Mk. 1:40-44)

This passage is an example of how Jesus expressed anger at someone who simply asked for help.

"Then he went back to the synagogue, and a fellow with a crippled hand was there. So they kept an eye on him, to see whether he would heal the fellow on the sabbath day, so they could denounce him. And he says to the fellow with the crippled hand, 'Get up here in front of everybody.' Then he asks them, 'On the sabbath day is it permitted to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?' But they maintained their silence. And looking right at them with anger, exasperated at their obstinacy, he says to the fellow, 'Hold out your hand!'" (Mk. 3:1-5)

The above is an example of how Jesus expressed anger as he antagonized his fellow Jews.

"Then he goes home, and once again a crowd gathers, so they could not even grab a bite to eat. When his relatives heard about it, they came to get him. (You see they thought he was out of his mind.)" (Mk. 3:20-21)

Above, Jesus own family thought he had gone insane.

"Then his mother and brothers arrive. While still outside, they send in and ask for him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they say to him, 'Look, your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside looking for you.' In response he says to them: 'My mother and brothers--who ever are they?'" (Mk. 3:31-33)

Above, Jesus shunned his own family.

"Jesus used to tell them: 'No prophet goes without respect, except on his home turf and among his relatives and at home!' He was unable to perform a single miracle there, except that he did cure a few by laying hands on them..." (Mk. 6:4-6)

Above, we can see that Jesus failed in his own hometown and with his own relatives. These are the very people who knew him BEST.

"Then he summoned the twelve and started sending them out in pairs and giving them authority over unclean spirits...And he went on to say to them: 'Whenever you enter someone's house, stay there until you leave town. And whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, get out of there and shake the dust off your feet in witness against them.'" Mk. 6:7;10-11)

Above, Jesus instructs his disciples to place a magical curse on those who do not receive them. "Shaking off a town's dust" is a gesture of contempt.

"And they went out to see what had happened. And they come to Jesus and notice the demoniac sitting with his clothes on and with his wits about him, the one who had harbored Legion, and they got scared. And those who had seen told them what had happened to the demoniac, and all about the pigs. And they started begging him to go away from the region." (Mk. 5:14-17)

It the above passage, Jesus is begged by his fellow Jewish people to get out of the area. He was frightening to them.

"And as (Jesus) was getting into the boat, the ex-demoniac kept pleading with him to go along. And he would not let him..." (Mk. 5:18-19)

Apparently, Jesus did not love the demoniac at first sight. Anyway, he refused to allow the poor man to come with him.

"As he was traveling along the road, someone ran up, knelt before him, and started questioning him: 'Good teacher, what do I have to do to inherit eternal life?'...Jesus loved him at first sight..." (Mk. 10:17;21)

Above, we see that Jesus did express love. The question is: What kind of love?

"On the next day, as they were leaving Bethany, he got hungry. So when he spotted a fig tree in the distance with some leaves on it, he went up to it expecting to find something on it. But when he got right up to it, he found nothing on it except leaves. (You see, it wasn't 'time' for figs.) And he reacted by saying: 'May no one so much as taste your fruit again!' And his disciples were listening." (Mk. 11:12-14)

Above, we read about Jesus magically cursing a fig tree and killing it.

Ish: Jesus' main message was one of love for one's neighbor which he demonstrated constantly. This is made obvious in his healing and exhortation to not just follow the letter of the law but to understand the reasons behind the law.

Yeah, right. Jesus healed people reluctantly and at times angrily. He didn't heal people out of love; he healed people because it was expected of a Galilean prophet/magician. I challenge you to produce textual evidence from "Mark," the oldest narrative, that demonstrates Jesus went around promoting love
"constantly" or even rarely.


quote:
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Rodahi:
2. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus considered himself to be superior to other Jews. Who in his right mind would have followed an egotistical troublemaker?
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Ish: Huh?

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Ish: Yes, Paul explains quite vividly why Jesus considered himself to be superior to other Jews. Jesus is God.

1. Paul states his superstitious opinions. 2. Jesus considered himself to be superior to all others because he was probably delusional.
3. Jesus was no more a god than Paul was.

Ish: "Egotistical troublemaker"? This is opinion.

It is a view supported by a great deal of textual evidence. That is, if we can believe the NT.

Ish: Jesus made himself a servant in biblical terms.

Then why did Jesus avoid crowds of people whom he could serve? Why didn't he serve the demoniac whom he refused to take with him? Why didn't he serve his family and the people of his hometown?

Ish: He washed the disciples' feet, a lowly and demeaning thing at that time.

He also expressed anger and contempt for his disciples on occasion. Jesus washing other men's feet could be seen the same way as "Jesus loved him at first sight."

Ish: Most of the "trouble" was due to those trying to trap him.

Why would anyone want to "trap him" if he was a kind, peaceful, and loving person? The fact is, the evidence indicates just the opposite: He was a troublemaker.

Ish: What trouble can you find in a man who tells the truth and heals people?

1. What do you mean by "tells the truth?" He lied to his brothers on at least one occasion. We don't know how truthful he was.
2. Jewish magicians healed people. Does that mean they loved their patients?

Ish: Some of the claims that he made can be seen as "egotistical" but only if one denies the truth of what he was saying.

It is not a "claim." It is documented in the narrative attributed to Mark. I am not denying anything. Read "Mark" and find out for yourself. Present counter evidence from the earliest narrative.

Ish: Jesus usually made his claims in passing and did not focus on them which hardly seems like "egotists" that I know.

Based on the narratives, Jesus considered himself superior to his fellow Jews and family. That indicates the size of his ego.


quote:
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Rodahi:
3. Paul DOES NOT explain why Jesus failed to convince most of the Jewish people that he was truly the "annointed" of Yahweh.
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Ish: As stated above, I believe Paul does explain why the Jews failed to recognize their awaited Messiah.

I was referring to the period while Jesus was alive.

rodahi

Rodahi, in my opinion your interpretation of this passage could do with some improvement. Shall we place it in context?
In Mark 1:29-34 (the preceeding passage) Jesus heals all the sick people in Capernaum.
Mark 1:35-38: Simon tells Jesus that the people of Capernaum were looking for him. (Presumably wanting to talk further to such a great miracle worker)
But Jesus replies that he must not stay in Capernaum but travel to the other villages because that is his mission.
In Mark 1:39 it says that Jesus travelled all over Galilee preaching and driving out demons.

Thus your statement that "This is a clear example of Jesus avoiding those who were looking for him to heal them." is outrightly false in light of the fact that Jesus had already healed all the sick (1:32) in Capernaum and that Jesus continued healing the sick in the towns he went to (1:39)

Also "Jesus put his desires ahead of those who needed healing" is also false for the same reasons. As well it is debatable whether they were "his desires" as opposed to God's to whom he had been praying (1:35)

What translation are you using Rodahi? Your translation says "Although Jesus was indignant".
NIV, NASB, DARBY, YLT have that Jesus was: "moved with compassion".
Good News, Holy Bible, Living Bible, The Gospels in Modern English, RSV have that Jesus was: "moved with pity".
Worldwide English has: "Jesus was very sorry for him".

Whatever your translation is, it doesn't seem to match with any of the ones I can find. The only support I can find for yours is a footnote occurring only in the Good News that "some manuscripts have anger" instead of "pity".

Your translation "And Jesus snapped at him, and dismissed him curtly with this warning" uses stronger language than any others I can find for this.
The ones I listed above have either that Jesus: "talked strongly to him", "sternly warned him", "sharply charged him", "sternly charged him", "spoke sternly to him", gave him a "strict injuction", or "told him sternly".
Your translation "snapped" implies that Jesus is angry. No other translations imply anger.

Rodahi, I don't know whether you deliberately chose an iffy translation to try to illustrate your point or what, but I suggest that you use a different translation in future because whatever you are using does not seem to be accurate (Considering that not a single translation I can lay my hands on agrees with what yours says. [As well as what I listed above I have also just checked KJV, NKJV, KJ21 and the RSV Interlinear Greek-English New Testament. They agreed with the ones I've listed above.]).

Your translation is letting you down again. "exasperated at their obstinacy" should read "grieved at their hardness of heart".

"The above is an example of how Jesus expressed anger as he antagonized his fellow Jews".
This is cleverly written: Jesus is expressing anger and he is antagonizing his fellow Jews. So what you've written is true so far as it goes. But of course it is false by the fact that it only tells half the story. If you care to read the passage in a more accurate translation you should see that Jesus is both right in his actions and just in his anger.

Congratulations this is the first passage for which I agree with your interpretation. (If not the translation) Pity it seems to be irrelevant to the question at hand.

Your translation is letting you down again.
So I'll use the NIV (and add 34 & 35 which you'd conviently left off ):
The passage is not so much saying that Jesus shunned his own family (It does not say "Family go away, I don't like you") as saying that Jesus rasied up all who do God's will to the level of his family. -Jesus simply takes the opportunity of his family arriving to further his teaching by asking this rhetorical question.

Again I agree with your interpretation, but its relevance to the point appears to be lacking. Your point was:
Not being able to heal many of his relatives and people in his home town because they had no faith and did not respect him hardly supports your point that "Jesus...was antagonistic toward his Jewish relatives and neighbors".

I'm not quite sure its a "gesture of contempt" as opposed to a warning. Either way equating it with "a magical curse" is getting somewhat imaginative.

Yes. Point?

Shall we include in a decent translation the parts you have left off here Rodahi?
NIV: Mark 5
18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him.
19 Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."
20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis [the ten cities] how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

egaproen is the greek word used here. According to my NT Greek-English dictionary this means Christian love.

Yes. Point?

Mark 12:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."


"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.

To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Have you read "Mark?" If you have not, then I will tell you this: It has 16 chapters detailing the activities of Jesus. The ONLY place in all those words, sentences, paragraphs, and pages where Jesus speaks of neighborly love are the sentences you quoted.
That hardly satisfies my challenge of proving that Jesus constantly told his fellow Jews to love one another. One instance, the one you quoted, might satisfy the "rarely" challenge.

rodahi

quote:
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Originally posted by rodahi:
"And rising early, while it was still dark, he went outside and stole away to an isolated place, where he started praying. Then Simon and those with him hunted him down. When they had found him they say to him, 'They're all looking for you.' But he replies, 'Let's go somewhere else, to the neigboring villages, so I can speak there too, since that's what I came for.'" (Mk. 1:35-38)
This is a clear example of Jesus avoiding those who were looking for him to heal them. Jesus put his desires ahead of those who needed healing.


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Tercel: Rodahi, in my opinion your interpretation of this passage could do with some improvement. Shall we place it in context?
In Mark 1:29-34 (the preceeding passage) Jesus heals all the sick people in Capernaum.
Mark 1:35-38: Simon tells Jesus that the people of Capernaum were looking for him. (Presumably wanting to talk further to such a great miracle worker)
But Jesus replies that he must not stay in Capernaum but travel to the other villages because that is his mission.
In Mark 1:39 it says that Jesus travelled all over Galilee preaching and driving out demons.
Thus your statement that "This is a clear example of Jesus avoiding those who were looking for him to heal them." is outrightly false in light of the fact that Jesus had already healed all the sick (1:32) in Capernaum and that Jesus continued healing the sick in the towns he went to (1:39)

There is nothing "outrightly false" about my comment. As a matter of fact, you have misrepresented what the text says. Nowhere does the text state that Jesus "already healed all the sick." What the text does say is this: "And he healed many who were sick..." (1:34) Jesus avoided many and put his desires ahead of those who sought his help.

Tercel: Also "Jesus put his desires ahead of those who needed healing" is also false for the same reasons.

I have shown your "same reasons" to be false.

Tercel: As well it is debatable whether they were "his desires" as opposed to God's to whom he had been praying(1:35)

1. Great. You admit that Jesus was not Yahweh. That is a major concession.
2. Regardless of who or what Jesus thought was guiding him, he avoided those who sought his help.

rodahi

quote:
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"Then a leper comes up to him, pleads with him, falls down on his knees, and says to him, 'If you want to, you can make me clean.' Although Jesus was indignant, he stretched out his hand, touched him, and says to him, 'Okay--you're clean!' And right away the leprosy disappeared, and he was made clean. And Jesus snapped at him, and dismissed him curtly with this warning: 'See that you don't tell anyone anything, but go, have a priest examine (your skin). Then offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as evidence (of your cure).'" (Mk. 1:40-44)
This passage is an example of how Jesus expressed anger at someone who simply asked for help.


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Tercel: What translation are you using Rodahi?

I used the translation that best depicts what Jesus did and said. It is called the Scholar's Version. You might try reading it.

Tercel: Your translation says "Although Jesus was indignant".
NIV, NASB, DARBY, YLT have that Jesus was: "moved with compassion".
Good News, Holy Bible, Living Bible, The Gospels in Modern English, RSV have that Jesus was: "moved with pity".
Worldwide English has: "Jesus was very sorry for him".

Yes, I am aware of the mistranslation of the various versions you mentioned. Christian apologists have softened what Jesus actually said and meant. Read Bart D. Ehrman's The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture.

Tercel: Whatever your translation is, it doesn't seem to match with any of the ones I can find. The only support I can find for yours is a footnote occurring only in the Good News that "some manuscripts have anger" instead of "pity".

"Anger" fits the context far better than "pity."

Tercel: Your translation "And Jesus snapped at him, and dismissed him curtly with this warning" uses stronger language than any others I can find for this.

Again, the translation I used BEST expresses Jesus words and actions.

Tercel: The ones I listed above have either that Jesus: "talked strongly to him", "sternly warned him", "sharply charged him", "sternly charged him", "spoke sternly to him", gave him a "strict injuction", or "told him sternly".
Your translation "snapped" implies that Jesus is angry. No other translations imply anger.

According to Ehrman, the Greek indicates that Jesus was angry.

Tercel: Rodahi, I don't know whether you deliberately chose an iffy translation to try to illustrate your point or what, but I suggest that you use a different translation in future because whatever you are using does not seem to be accurate (Considering that not a single translation I can lay my hands on agrees with what yours says.

I suggest that you read something other than Christian-influenced translations. Anyway, my point still stands: Jesus expressed anger at someone who merely wished to get his help.

rodahi