Jack the Bodiless

Which "ancients" are you referring to? Sure, some "ancients" (notably the Greeks) knew this, but non-seafarers such as the Hebrews mostly see hills on the horizon.

And let's not forget that the people of the modern era know that the Earth is several billion years old, that species evolved gradually from common ancestors, and that humans are descended from apes: this, too, is "common knowledge", and yet some religious fundamentalists still deny it. What's the diference between creationists and flat-Earthers? Both deny "common knowledge" which contradicts their religion.

Incidentally, this is how Job 38 begins:
There follows a general-knowledge quiz on Hebrew cosmology and related issues. At no point does Job butt in and say "Haha, erm, that's just a figure of speech, surely?"

lpetrich

And the curious thing about the apologist whine of "you quoted it out of context" is that the the apologists who emit this whine are usually reluctant to follow up and describe that context.

Also, the copyist-error apologetic brings up a further problem. If a contradiction was a result of a miscopy, then might there be other miscopies in the text?

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

Viti

Hi svensky,
For those of you who did not catch up on the previous thread, I asked svensky about the differing accounts of the fate of Judas and asked 3 questions.
1. What and whose prophecy was fulfilled
2. Did Judas hang himself or did he fall and burst his guts
3. Who purchased the field

He pointed me to an explanation which agreed with his views on the subject, but it did not in any way address question 1 in regards to the differing prophecy fulfillment. I mentioned this and he asked me to repost the exact verses regarding the prophecy.

Anyway, svensky...I am posting them here as well.

I highlighted the prophecy verses in my OP, but it is MT 27:9 and Acts 1:16

MT 27:9 Then were fulfilled the words spoken by Jeremiah the prophet when he said "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price on Him whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel [Zech 11:12,13]
To be in context it must be read after reading MT 27:3-8 which explains that Judas threw the silver on the floor in the temple, hung himself, and the priests bought the field

Acts 1:16 Peter states "Bretheren, it was necessary that the scripture be fulfilled which the holy spirit foretold by the lips of David, about Judas who acted as guide to those who arrested Jesus" then goes on to tell that Judas bought the land, fell and burst his guts and died.

My position is that the two differing death and purchase accounts is stretch enough, but I have yet to receive a refutation or explanation about the prophecy

Viti

bump

ThomasCassidy

I am new to this forum, so I am not entirely certain what it is you object to in the above accounts, but I will try to explain my understanding of these events, then, if you find them to still be inconsistant, I will try again.

As to your first question, there were two prophecies fulfilled. The first is that of Jeremiah/Zechariah. Although there may be an allusion to Jeremiah 18:1-4, the more likely explanation is the Talmudic tradition that the prophetic writings be placed in the canon in the order of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc. Many Hebrew MSS follow this order. Thus, Matthew cited the passage as from the scroll of the prophets calling it by the name of the first book in that scroll. Just as the books we call "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy" are all called "Moses" in the Hebrew canon, and 1st and 2nd Chronicles are called 3rd and 4th Kings. The quote from Acts 1:16 is refering to David's Psalm, 41:9, which Peter says was given to David by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21).

To your second question I would have to answer "both." He hanged himself, and, I would assume, either the rope or the branch broke, and he fell on the rocks and his bowels burst forth. It seems he could not even commit suicide correctly!

And thirdly, the field was purchased by the Jews using the money cast by Judas onto the floor of the temple. Judas bought the field posthumously.

If this did not answer your question, please feel free to expand the disucssion.

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: ThomasCassidy ]

svensky

Thank you thomas. I hadn't had a chance to look it up. As for the difference in the accounts Lady Shea, I did give you a couple of explanations (well pointer too). You decided that it wasn't good enough. Thank you for finailly providing hte verses BTW.

Jason

Viti

Thanks for your answer Thomas. Please read the discussion between me and svensky in this thread for my continued problems with this widely accepted reconciliation. Then perhaps you and I can continue this discussion, I'm getting tired of reposting everything!
http://www.infidels.org/electronic/f...c&f=6&t=000904

PS I don't think we've ever been involved in the same threads previously. I appreciate your respectful and friendly tone and hope we can have future discussions

ThomasCassidy

Thanks for the URL to the other thread. As a newcomer here, I am still quite lost in the maze of interesting discussions.

Thank you also for the kind greetings. I am an Administrator on the Baptist Board, and am well known for upbraiding those who fail to maintain polite decorum. We may disagree, but that is no excuse for being disagreeable!

I have read the other thread and believe I have addressed your concerns.

Although many see an inconsistancy in Judas' hanging then falling, I don't. I had a friend in high school back in 1961 who became dispondent over a young lady and tried to hang himself from the rafter in his garage. The rope broke and he fell and broke his leg. At the time we had a great laugh about it (we did not at that age understand how fragile we really are), but it did teach me that such things happen!

As to the Jeremiah/Zechariah quote, I think the arrangement of the OT canon explains that one, and the Acts 1:16 quote of David in Psalm 41:9 seems to me to be addressing a different prophecy made by a different person.

As to who bought the field, again, it seems to me to be a matter of semantics. When my wife and I bought a new home 20 years ago, I talked with a friend and told him we were building a new house. He knew I did not mean my wife and I were personally hammering the nails and sawing the lumber, but that I had contracted with a builder, and all I was doing was paying him (through the NOSE, I might add!). We often use such language of convience. At least I do.

Thanks again for the interesting discussion, and for allowing me to be publicly pedantic.

Viti

What do you mean finally, they were clearly marked and italicized in my first post...anyway

Thomas, I am misunderstanding your references, I apologize. So they were referring to the same prohecy just using differing forms of reference or two differing prophecies alluding to the same event?

ThomasCassidy

Two different prophets, refering to the different aspects of the same event. David (Psalm 41:9) refers to the betrayal of Christ by a "friend" - I.E., one of the "inner circle" - Judas. And Zechariah refers to the motivation of Judas (30 pieces of silver) and the results of his betrayal.