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Old 02-18-2001, 09:54 AM   #11
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Another theory, sometimes favored by Eastern Orthodox doyens, is the Divine Condescension Theory. God condescends by taking on flesh, since being fleshly is vastly humiliating compared to being pure divinity. So the crucifixion of the God-man is astronomically more potent than any punishment of an ordinary human. The problem is that the baby in the manger, or in the mother, is already paying a huge price. The crucifixion becomes just an enhancement.

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Old 02-18-2001, 12:18 PM   #12
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lpetrich:
That would have been a fun miracle, wouldn't it?

After all, he was supposed to be God, or at least 1/3 of God.
He could of, that he didn't is what is important. Also, the taunt "Physician, heal yourself!" Is hardly original.

Jesus was not omnipotant or omniscient. He only knew what his father revealed to him and he only did what his father told him. The night before in the garden is where he pleaded for the cup to be taken away, it wasn't.

Ernie explained the punishment well and I've added something below to explain more about just what Jesus gave up.

It's also important to note that the Bible says that Jesus rose from the dead not as an act of God's generousity to his son. God didn't decide that making him 'suffer' in hell for a couple of days would suffice and then he would step in and help. Rather, Jesus was on his own. He rose from the dead after he 'conquered death' or destroyed Satan's power.

Here's a constructed list of the powers that Jesus gave up to become human.


When God went from infinite to infant there were two things he gave up completely,
three things he gave up, but were given back to him, one thing that he didn't give up until the end and one thing he never gave up.

Omnipresent: To become Jesus the human baby, Christ had to give up the state of being everywhere.

Ageless and Timeless: To become Jesus the human Baby, Christ had to be confined to exist in one time.

Omniscient: While on Earth Jesus relied on the Father to reveal things to Him.
Omnimpotant: While on Earth Jesus waited until His time to perform Miracles
Infinite Glory: While on Earth Jesus was glorified by His father.

Infinite Holiness: Jesus never sinned. He remained holy throughout His life, only losing this infinate part of himself when he took on our sins on the cross.

Infinite Love: The only part of his infinate nature that Jesus never lost, was His infinit love. Even when he died he did not loose this love for us and forgave even those who were killing him.


[This message has been edited by Epitome (edited February 18, 2001).]
Old 02-26-2001, 12:19 AM   #13
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Why the sacrifice in the first place?

Why are gods bloodthirsty? Why does anyone/thing have to hurt so gods can be happy?

Why not loosen the definition(s) of sin a little and let humans have a little fun?

If I were a god, then I would make a big hairy deal out of a show of my self and my powers/knowledge by showing up at the Super Bowl/Pro Bowl/World Series/MLB All-Star Game/Stanley Cup Final {Game}/NHL All-Star Game/NBA Final {Game}/NBA All-Star Game/Olympics/Etc., performing some miracles such as healings and weather changes, letting people videotape my "stuff," answering big hairy questions, chatting on-camera with reporters and reporterettes, etc.

I notice that so far as I can tell, gods have not bothered with Super Bowl/Etc. appearances.

Also, it seems silly to have wasted a resurrection on an obscure bunch of people when showing up in Rome for a date at the Colliseum and raising the dead, regenerating lopped off limbs, playing with the lions and tigers, etc., would have converted a lot more people to my cause.

Now, if I had been a god back then, then ... !!!
Old 02-26-2001, 02:55 AM   #14
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I will not ignore the cheap trivialisations of the Crucifixion of Christ that juvenile minds enjoy endlessly but first I will consider the original question, why did Christ not save himself. The answer is he did.

It is a question that in any case is 2000 years too late because it was asked at the time by those whose stock in trade was mockery and scorn.

[Of course the mighty intellects of the Secular Web would never sink to such depths.]

The simple answer is that Christ's purposes lay beyond this life and he did not seek an extension of life to build an earthly kingdom.

The Cross was and is important because it demonstrates that God is willing to share the suffering that each of us faces at the end of mortal life in a greater or lesser degree.

As to being dead for an hour or so ... if that was true for Christ it is true for you and me ... it is nothing to joke about.

Here is the account of those who mocked Jesus. Join that club if that is where your "intelligence" leads you, but do not be surprised if mockery of the beliefs of others earns you the justified contempt of reasonable people.

Mindless repetition of cheap pathetic humour simply reflects the improverished intellect of the speaker ... your messages betray your cheap attitudes and your lack of moral fibre in failing to give respect to that which others hold sacred.

I do not seek to trivialise or diminish atheists if they are rational and civilised in the way they address matters ... what makes you think you deserve to occupy a place in civilised society while engaging in mean spirited mockery as the enemies of Christ did 2000 years ago?

Here is the clear record of the depths to which "clever" people sank then and still sink :-

"What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?" Pilate asked them.

"Crucify him!" they shouted.

"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers.

They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him.

And they began to call out to him, "Hail, king of the Jews!"

Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.

And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him.

A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.

They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).

Then they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it.

And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

It was the third hour when they crucified him.

The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS.

They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days,

come down from the cross and save yourself!"

In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself!

Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.

So there you are feel free to join the company of the scornful ... what a sorry band of impoverished "intellects" you are, in believing Christ required earthly political power.

Off you go now to play with your toys and kick old ladies crutches.

No Blessings and No Peace


Old 02-26-2001, 06:32 AM   #15
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ernest Sparks:
[B]You are missing the point of the story. God had to bleed in order to wash away the sins of the world. Only divine blood was good enough to do that.

But it didn't work. I haven't seen any perfect people yet.

[This message has been edited by Sturgeon (edited February 26, 2001).]
Old 02-26-2001, 08:16 AM   #16
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The Cross was and is important because it demonstrates that God is willing to share the suffering that each of us faces at the end of mortal life in a greater or lesser degree.

So was all this predestined or was free will in effect?

If free will is an option, what would have happened if the Jews had accepted Christ's message? Or, instead of crucifying him had cut his throat while he was sleeping?

Or, more likely, what would have happened if they had just ignored him?

Old 02-26-2001, 11:47 AM   #17
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However, Jesus Christ was supposed to have been God, or at least 1/3 of God, meaning that nothing could really have hurt him. So all that appearance of suffering could have been a way to get people to feel sorry for him.

And cringing before a lynch mob is contrary to the portrayal of Pontius Pilate in other historians' writings, such as Josephus and Philo.

Furthermore, Romans 13 would seem to indicate that JC's execution was completely justified.

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