sh0k0nes

Metacrock - Read my thread on "the stupidity of all or nothing." That approach just reduces the Bible to information please almanac. Such alledged "contradictions" just don't matter.

These things don't matter to 'you'.
They matter to many other people.

Are u trying to say that the most-high god wouldn't be interested in every fine detail??
He must have known that people would question these minutiae.
He spent lots of time 'revealing' irrelevant information about who-begat-who.

Kev

handelsskole

Hm...are you speeking for god now, Meta?

GunnerJ

Missing the point, DH.

I am not arguing that I am "judged" by my deeds. To do so, I would have to suppose that there is a "judge." You completely ignored the argument with a nice straw man of my position. The question is here: "Are we saved by faith alone, or faith and works?"

By only "rebutting" the "Salvation is not by faith alone" and trying to misconstrue my argument by some absurd leaps of logic, you have accomplished nothing. You have ignored the "Faith alone" side. You "victoriously" contend that the "faith with works" belief is "obviously" supported by the Bible, and go on to "disprove" my supposed contention
that works allone can save us (which I did not make, since I don't believ in "salvation" at all.) Yet you gloss over the many Bible quotes that disprove your idea.

My point was this: Salvation is the most important tenant of the Xian faith. There is a split between those Xians on whether salvation comes by faith alone or by good works, as well. Each side (like you) claims Biblical support for their position by selective reading of Scripture (again, like you.) They ignore the opposing views in their own Holy Book (like you), knock down straw-man arguments to prop up their position (like you), and obfuscate the issue with spurious points and contentions (like you.) I ask you this: looking at BOTH SIDES of the issue presented in the Bible, at BOTH of the columns of quotations, some that say "Faith alone" is the way, some that say "Faith + works" is the way, can you not see some contradiction?

Of interest:

As is its opposite: "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." Gal.2:16

Care to comment?

Why? What makes you so sure your translation is better? It seems you think so because it supports your a priori assumption.

Of course, by ignoring opposing arguements, there are none. Put it in contrast: "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." Rom.3:20 Why must he keep any commandments if the Bible says elsewhere that following the law does no good?

I suppose the Bible doesn't want it to "make sense" by contradicting it: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5 Is this faith in "his mercy" false?

Really? This page dissagrees. I suppose they're not "really" Christians, though...

Interestingly enough, this passage says nothing about the "faith" not being "real." Unless you can come up with some reason why I should belive that this instance of the word "faith" reffers to false faith, and all the others refer to true faith, i should ammend your final statement: "It only makes sense if you want it to."

All in all, you seem to have the confused notion that I was arguing the 'Good works allone can save us." This is false for two reasons:
1) I do not believe in salvation, I therefore make no statement upon its qualifications
2) My arguement was that the Bible is ambiguous on the subject of salvation, an ambiguity you chose to ignore so that you could knock down your own straw man and look like the victor.

I see. So those who don't seem to do any good things are not "truly" saved? What happens to you, if you think you're "truly" saved, and you start to go bad, just because you screw up somehow? All your life you thought you were "truly" saved, but then you start doing bad things, does that mean your weren't "truly" saved? If you can't be sure if you're really saved or not, and you need good works to back it up, doesn't that amount to works saving? Such confusion this "salvation" stuff is.

If only your own Holy Book agreed: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jas.2:17

Nothing here about "true faith" beeing "discerned" by works, it seems very clear that those who are "saved" had better be on their best bahavior anyway.

Ish

I have to ask why it is that the atheists and agnostics on this site won't stand up and condemn bad stuff like this link posted by Winslow.

I know I've debated with several atheists and agnostics who know better.

For a brief and understandably dismissive exercise...

First, I think the more learned people here would not consider Acharya S much of a scholar.

Second, what in the world is "Yehoshu-yah"? Something obviously written by someone who does not know Hebrew... ("Yah" does not come at the end of Yehoshua, Winslow.)

As I said, I know there are people on these boards who know better. Take a stand against nonsense like this or risk being guilty by association (at least that's the way it seems to work against theists)...

Ish

Toto

Ish: Christians have a party line that they must follow (or be branded as Heretics or Not Orthodox by Nomad!) Infidels are free to disagree with each other.

TL Winslow is a self-professed fiction writer with an overarching theory that is interesting, and fits the facts as well as any (since we have so few facts.) I don't think that this theory would be destroyed by showing that there was no influence running from Mithras worship to the very early church (as opposed to the slightly later church). Acharya S. is mentioned in passing as someone who makes a career in tracing influences, not as the basis of the theory.

In other words, if you have trouble refuting the Jesus Virus theory, don't come running to the Atheists for help.

[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Toto ]

Wahrheit

Hi,

To use your terminology, excellent job dancing around the issue. The issue is not whether salvation is "confusing", but whether the Bible is contradictory on how we become saved.

I don't see how that's a disagreement with what I wrote -- in fact, it seems like an obvious agreement to me. If faith is not accompanied by words, it is a dead faith i.e. it isn't a real faith. Where's the problem?

Wahrheit

GunnerJ

I satnd by my statement. If salvation is such an important subject for Xians, it seems God would have been very explicit about it's attainment. If he had been, we would not be having this discussion. The terms 'discernment" and the idea of faith being false appears no where in the quotes I posted, they are assumed by you in order to make your theology seem to make sense where it doesn't. A confusion caused by vague terminology is as bad as a contradiction when dealing with such a supposedly important subject.

The problem is that the idea of "faith" being "real" only if it has works is not presented. "Dead" does not mean "fake." I have no reason to assume that the "faith" this passage speaks of is anything but genuine. It shows that good works are a co-requisite to salvation, along with faith, as opposed to showing that good works are nessisary to "discern" who's faith is "true" and who's faith is "false." That is my interpretation. And again, if this is such an important subject, you would expect the Bible to be more clear on it; i.e., to make a statement on Salvation that shows only ine clear meaning as to how it is attained, and is consistant in this meaning, and completely avoids any even appearant contradiction. Why would Gal. 2:16 say "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ," and 2 Cor. 5:10 say "For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad?" Surely this would be confusing to the lay reader. Why would god inspire people to write a book that has such confusing and contradictory messages that it takes many theological backflips to reconcile, and sometimes the reconciliations don't fit?