Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rocky · 08-14-2001, 01:42 PM

hi all. i posted basically this same question on a different forum this past weekend. the fact that it is also posted and under debate here obviously proves that the prophecy is correct.

not to mention the stunning coincidences that (1) adrienne and i are both from mississippi and (2) my sister-in-law is named adrian. isn't it great to see god at work!

seriously, this question does perplex me and i'm reading all posts to try and get a better handle on it.

-rocky

Ulrich · 08-14-2001, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adrienne Williams:

Starting Point:
March 14, 445BC.

62 + 7 = 69 weeks of years.

69 x 7 = 483 biblical years of 360 days each.

483 x 360 days = 173,880 days in Daniel's prophecy.

445 + 31 = 476 modern years between March 14, 445BC and March 14, 32AD. Note that there is only 1 year between 1BC and 1AD.

476 x 365 = 173,740 days. We'll allow for leap years next.

173,740 + 116 leap days = 173,856 total days Mar 14 to Mar 14.

173,856 + 24 (Mar 14 to Apr 6) = 173,880 days.

Notice in this calculation the author switches freely between 'biblical years' of 360 days, and 'modern years' of 365 days. Further, he takes into account the modern practice of adding days for a leap year in order to rectify the calender with the seasons, yet he ignores the ancient practice of adding entire months to accomplish the same goal. For this formula to have any meaning at all a standard system of dating should be used throughout. Without imposing standard year lengths it is just an exercise in pick and choose until the data fits the date.

Adrienne Williams · 08-14-2001, 04:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rocky:
[QB]hi all. i posted basically this same question on a different forum this past weekend. the fact that it is also posted and under debate here obviously proves that the prophecy is correct.

not to mention the stunning coincidences that (1) adrienne and i are both from mississippi and (2) my sister-in-law is named adrian. isn't it great to see god at work!

seriously, this question does perplex me and i'm reading all posts to try and get a better handle on it.

_____________________________________________
Hi Rocky,
I hate to start out on a bad note, but I have to tell you....just because this prophecy is being questioned by someone other than you, or even if it were questioned by the entire population would NOT mean that the prophecy was correct. In fact, over the past several days my boyfriend and I have been looking into this..with the help of the folks here on this discussion board. What we discovered was that the prophecy wasn't correct at all. The following information that totally discredits the prophecy is:

1. Considering that the decree to restore Jerusalem mentioned was given in 536 BC, the addition of 69 weeks of years to that only gets you to around 50 BC, not anywhere near the time Jesus was allegedly crucified.

2. The problem with Ezekiel is twofold..first, the Babylonian captivity lasted only fifty years instead of seventy, which throws the math off completely. Secondly, the Jews were pretty much on their own from the time they threw the Greeks out with the Maccabbean revolt until the Romans took over 100 years later. This gap in their "punishment" further throws off the math and also puts an end to the idea that there was some continual punishment from God.

Hope this helps.

Adrienne

P.S. A hearty thanks goes out to everyone who responded to my query and provided excellent links so that I could look this up!

Photocrat · 08-14-2001, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DennisM:


I realize you wrote this as a slam against atheists, but you've got it wrong. You don't have to be an idiot to have faith in Christianity; you simply need to refuse to consider the arguments against it.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: DennisM ]

Funny, I've done that & found them wanting. How do you argue the impossibility of a recursively enumerable proposition, anyhow? There is no decisive way to disprove that logically, nor can I consider such 'strong' athiesm logical.

Besides, is that not exactly what I've observed here? Let me rephrase it with direct quotes:

Adrienne Williams:
"I, unlike my boyfriend, do not think that if this prophecy is real that it automatically equates to God's existence or that it lends credence to the Bible, but it would be pretty darned freaky, no?"

Pantera:
"OMIGAWD! That site is shocking."

[out of order]
Adrienne Williams:
"Thank you very much, the link answered my questions fully!"

As for reverse engineering the prophecy, that can only be applied to the date. I've made no claims about the date because I honestly don't know when the Jewish captivity ended. All I know is that they *have* taught for a long time now that they would be reformed as a nation & it actually happened. I know that you can rehash that to no end, but concerning the simple facts of it, yes, there is a new Israel out there.

I understand objections relating to the 'plasticity' of interpretation athiests love to go on about, but this prophecy is not new. The only claims I am making are:

1) This prophecy was understood to say that there would be a new Israel, long before the 1960's (or even the Zionist movement, for that matter, who I understand to have taken comfort in that prophecy).

2) There is a new Israel.

I do not think that either of those claims is refuteable. However, I realize that given your a priori probability that God exists is << 1 [e.g. almost nil], that all facts are interpreted in this light, making the probability that any given fact supports God's existance is << 1 [e.g. absurd].

You would do far better to claim it a 'self-fulfilling' prophecy, of course (sheesh, this thread is slow about getting to that, huh? if that claim has been made, I've missed it...). But then I might ask you to produce some manner of documentation or evidence wherein people who knew of this prophecy directly, in some way, influenced the decision to grant them their homeland once more. I expect we'd then go back to the "well, it's just a coincidence" arguements (using the above arguement) and have a bit more carping about the mathematics of those dates, even though I have made no claims about them...

"Actually, atheists don't spend time checking it."

This was the most telling comment of all. Faith in athiesm is self-refuting.

Photocrat · 08-14-2001, 07:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Adrienne Williams:

Quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
[QB]hi all. i posted basically this same question on a different forum this past weekend. the fact that it is also posted and under debate here obviously proves that the prophecy is correct.

not to mention the stunning coincidences that (1) adrienne and i are both from mississippi and (2) my sister-in-law is named adrian. isn't it great to see god at work!

seriously, this question does perplex me and i'm reading all posts to try and get a better handle on it.

_____________________________________________
Hi Rocky,
I hate to start out on a bad note, but I have to tell you....just because this prophecy is being questioned by someone other than you, or even if it were questioned by the entire population would NOT mean that the prophecy was correct. In fact, over the past several days my boyfriend and I have been looking into this..with the help of the folks here on this discussion board. What we discovered was that the prophecy wasn't correct at all. The following information that totally discredits the prophecy is:

1. Considering that the decree to restore Jerusalem mentioned was given in 536 BC, the addition of 69 weeks of years to that only gets you to around 50 BC, not anywhere near the time Jesus was allegedly crucified.

2. The problem with Ezekiel is twofold..first, the Babylonian captivity lasted only fifty years instead of seventy, which throws the math off completely. Secondly, the Jews were pretty much on their own from the time they threw the Greeks out with the Maccabbean revolt until the Romans took over 100 years later. This gap in their "punishment" further throws off the math and also puts an end to the idea that there was some continual punishment from God.

Hope this helps.

Adrienne

P.S. A hearty thanks goes out to everyone who responded to my query and provided excellent links so that I could look this up!

Mmm, are we talking about two different restorations of Israel? If it's not clear, I've been refering to the *modern* restored Isreal, not the one the Romans destroyed.

Pantera · 08-14-2001, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Photocrat:
On to the real issue, dates aside, is it not a tad 'freaky' that Israel *did* reform as a nation *at all*, after all that time?

Not at all. Why should it be? Nations get reformed all the time - Persia, Lithuania (twice), Croatia, Poland, Scotland (in 1328) being just a few that spring to mind. Why should Israel be "freaky"? Because once upon a time somebody wrote a book saying that it would one day be a nation again? Show me a conquered country where the people haven't had hopes that one day their nation would be restored.

In Flower of Scotland the Corries sang "we will rise up and be a nation again". Does that mean that if Scotland becomes independent then I must conclude that The Corries had supernatural powers?

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Pantera ]

Family Man · 08-14-2001, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Photocrat:

Funny, I've done that & found them wanting. How do you argue the impossibility of a recursively enumerable proposition, anyhow? There is no decisive way to disprove that logically, nor can I consider such 'strong' athiesm logical.

I'm sure you have. That doesn't excuse your childish characterization of atheism, however.

And it is one thing to throw out impressive terms like "recursively enumerable propositions", it is quite another to explain what it means and how it advances your argument, much less explain how it contributes to the topic of this thread.

And finally, not all atheists are strong atheists.

[snipped -- since I don't see any point]

Quote:

As for reverse engineering the prophecy, that can only be applied to the date.

True. But that was the topic of this thread, thus what I assumed you were commenting about.

Quote:

I've made no claims about the date because I honestly don't know when the Jewish captivity ended. All I know is that they *have* taught for a long time now that they would be reformed as a nation & it actually happened. I know that you can rehash that to no end, but concerning the simple facts of it, yes, there is a new Israel out there.

Which we will see simply makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy, as you suggested that I argue below.

Quote:

I understand objections relating to the 'plasticity' of interpretation athiests love to go on about, but this prophecy is not new. The only claims I am making are:

1) This prophecy was understood to say that there would be a new Israel, long before the 1960's (or even the Zionist movement, for that matter, who I understand to have taken comfort in that prophecy).

2) There is a new Israel.

And point number one makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Zionist movement predates the reconstitution of Israel by decades. They were fighting for the reconstitution of Israel precisely because they considered it their sacred duty, in large part because of their reading of their holy book.

Quote:

I do not think that either of those claims is refuteable. However, I realize that given your a priori probability that God exists is << 1 [e.g. almost nil], that all facts are interpreted in this light, making the probability that any given fact supports God's existance is << 1 [e.g. absurd].

This is sheer childishness, and off-topic to boot. I could easily turn this around and claim that your a priori claim that God exists makes you see evidence where there is none. Of course, that would be as unfair as your claim above.

Quote:

You would do far better to claim it a 'self-fulfilling' prophecy, of course (sheesh, this thread is slow about getting to that, huh? if that claim has been made, I've missed it...). But then I might ask you to produce some manner of documentation or evidence wherein people who knew of this prophecy directly, in some way, influenced the decision to grant them their homeland once more.

Why should I provide documentation when you concede above that the Zionist movement was aware of and took comfort from the prophecy? Your exact wording was that "this prophecy was understood to say that there would be a new Israel, long before the 1960's (or even the Zionist movement, for that matter, who I understand to have taken comfort in that prophecy emphasis added).

Moreover, all you need to do is to ask Jews. This isn't the first time this topic has come up, and those who were raised Jewish made it quite clear that the biblical influence was there in the Zionist movement. The case that this was a self-fulfulling prophecy is very strong.

Quote:

I expect we'd then go back to the "well, it's just a coincidence" arguements (using the above arguement) and have a bit more carping about the mathematics of those dates, even though I have made no claims about them...

Gee, how nice you're putting words in my mouth. And in the future, you might relate your post to the theme of the thread more strongly. I'm sorry I misconstrued your meaning, and I don't mind that you take a different tack towards the issue, but I do mind your lack of charity, given the initial thrust of this thread.

Quote:

"Actually, atheists don't spend time checking it."

This was the most telling comment of all. Faith in athiesm is self-refuting.[/QB]

Actually, I find your rejoiner far more telling. Tell me, Photocrat, do you go around refuting every claim made by competing religions? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhism? Shintoism? Scientology? Mormonism? Or do you just assume that your version of God is the correct one and the others need not be refuted? And if you find these questions unfair (for they are) how do you justify demanding atheists refute every nonsensical argument (and please remember the original thrust of this thread), when Christianity is, after all, just one of many competing religions?

And just how atheism is "self-refuting" is another point left hanging there meaninglessly (and out of topic).

Tercel · 08-14-2001, 10:11 PM

The Seventy Sevens prophesy has always interested me. But there is certainly a question over what you take as your starting point and what sort of years you use.
I noted down several internet sites a while ago which dealt with the subject and haven't since gotten around to going through them all and evaluating the prophesy myself. But for anyone who is interested, I still have the list:

70 Weeks
Daniel's prophesy of the seventy weeks
Daniel's Seventy Weeks
Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" An Historical and Exegetical Analysis
Lesson 1: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
Seventy Weeks of Daniel Nine
The Seventy Weeks
The 70 weeks of Daniel
The Seventy weeks of Daniel Chapter 9
The Seventy weeks of Daniel 9 Part 1
The 70 weeks of Daniel 9
The Seventy weeks of Daniel

Family Man · 08-14-2001, 10:47 PM

Photocrat wanted some documentation that Zionists were aware of the prophecy before Israel's rebirth in 1948. I really don't have time to scour Zionist literature from the early part of this century, but I really don't think this point is in serious dispute. All that is really necessary is to show that the Zionists were inspired by their religion to fight for a homeland in Palestine. I think it's safe to assume that if Christians could find this argument, that the Zionists were equally capable of finding the same passage to justify their own actions. To that end, I offer the following from http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/zion.html:

Quote:

The Zionist ideal of a return to Israel has profound religious roots. Many Jewish prayers speak of Jerusalem, Zion and the Land of Israel. The injunction not to forget Jerusalem, the site of the Temple, is a major tenet of Judaism. The Hebrew language, the Torah, laws in the Talmud, the Jewish calendar and Jewish holidays and festivals such as Shavuot all originated in Israel and revolve around its seasons and conditions. Jews pray toward Jerusalem and recite the words "next year in Jerusalem" every Passover. Jewish religion, culture and history make clear that it is only in the land of Israel that the Jewish commonwealth can be built.

It would be an oversimplification to say that the religious motivation was the only cause of the Zionist movement, but it clearly contributed. As such, it is certainly not remarkable that the Bible "predicts" the reconstitution of Israel when it is very clear that the Jews had strong religious motivation to work for the very thing that is supposively predicted.
That is the very definition of a self-fulfulling prophecy.

truthseekar · 08-14-2001, 11:14 PM

quote:Adrienne Williams
...........................................
I have read several essays thoroughly debunking the various Bible prophecies, but I have yet to read anything about the one prophecy that seems most credible...the one in Daniel where Gabriel comes to him and tells him that Israel will become a nation again.
..............................................

Adrienne Williams,
Hears a couple of prophesys that speak for them self and appear irrefutable to me.

This was written supposedly 450 bc (definitly not written by moses) concerning Jesus being like Moses.

Deuteronomy 18

18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

The whole book of Isaiah was put together bye 200 BC at the latest.

Isaiah 9
6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, and The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth-even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Hears a psalm written by David. I will only highlight the interesting bits, although the new testament was written after this and could have stolen some accounts as the crucifixion account , it would be hard to steal the whole psalm as it would totally take away the suffering of jesus Christ in the gospels.
Psalm 22
1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
13
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28
For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

V 28-31 are fulfilled through the fact that jesus is and has been the governing factor concerning good and evil over the worlds nations in general over the last 2000 yrs not to mention the amount of people that consider him as thay return to dust and become aware of there hopelessness and his offer of salvation.

Although not all of this prophesy is completed it`s not far of it`s completion. I believe this is the Jews coming back to Israel in the end time, the reason I believe this is because the Jews that returned from Babylon about 450 bc came from Babylon and a couple of other parts of the world but this is a migration over a generation from every corner of the world and it also says god dose this as a sign of the end times in verse 12.

12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 11
1
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5
And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15
And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16
And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

If the two exiles he is talking about are Egypt and Assyria then it wouldn’t make sense as the prediction is set in the time of the end and the time of the gentiles and the time of the root of Jesse which are all some 1000 yrs in the future
From Egypt and Assyrian exile.

This prophesy by Paul hasn’t fully been fulfilled yet either except after 2000 yrs it finally looks like it is well in the making of another fulfilled biblical prophesy and there’s heaps more of them.

Romans 11
25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I`VE JUST STARTED ON THIS.

I`m going to keep it short, this is about 10% of the biblical prophesys of this book that I now off.

Are these irrefutable or not???? I’d like to see other opinions on this subject of biblical prophesy??????

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08-14-2001, 01:42 PM	#21
Rocky Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6	hi all. i posted basically this same question on a different forum this past weekend. the fact that it is also posted and under debate here obviously proves that the prophecy is correct. not to mention the stunning coincidences that (1) adrienne and i are both from mississippi and (2) my sister-in-law is named adrian. isn't it great to see god at work! seriously, this question does perplex me and i'm reading all posts to try and get a better handle on it. -rocky

08-14-2001, 04:06 PM	#23
Adrienne Williams Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Mississippi Posts: 11	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rocky: [QB]hi all. i posted basically this same question on a different forum this past weekend. the fact that it is also posted and under debate here obviously proves that the prophecy is correct. not to mention the stunning coincidences that (1) adrienne and i are both from mississippi and (2) my sister-in-law is named adrian. isn't it great to see god at work! seriously, this question does perplex me and i'm reading all posts to try and get a better handle on it. _____________________________________________ Hi Rocky, I hate to start out on a bad note, but I have to tell you....just because this prophecy is being questioned by someone other than you, or even if it were questioned by the entire population would NOT mean that the prophecy was correct. In fact, over the past several days my boyfriend and I have been looking into this..with the help of the folks here on this discussion board. What we discovered was that the prophecy wasn't correct at all. The following information that totally discredits the prophecy is: 1. Considering that the decree to restore Jerusalem mentioned was given in 536 BC, the addition of 69 weeks of years to that only gets you to around 50 BC, not anywhere near the time Jesus was allegedly crucified. 2. The problem with Ezekiel is twofold..first, the Babylonian captivity lasted only fifty years instead of seventy, which throws the math off completely. Secondly, the Jews were pretty much on their own from the time they threw the Greeks out with the Maccabbean revolt until the Romans took over 100 years later. This gap in their "punishment" further throws off the math and also puts an end to the idea that there was some continual punishment from God. Hope this helps. Adrienne P.S. A hearty thanks goes out to everyone who responded to my query and provided excellent links so that I could look this up!

08-14-2001, 10:11 PM	#28
Tercel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,315	The Seventy Sevens prophesy has always interested me. But there is certainly a question over what you take as your starting point and what sort of years you use. I noted down several internet sites a while ago which dealt with the subject and haven't since gotten around to going through them all and evaluating the prophesy myself. But for anyone who is interested, I still have the list: 70 Weeks Daniel's prophesy of the seventy weeks Daniel's Seventy Weeks Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" An Historical and Exegetical Analysis Lesson 1: Daniel's Seventy Weeks Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9 Seventy Weeks of Daniel Nine The Seventy Weeks The 70 weeks of Daniel The Seventy weeks of Daniel Chapter 9 The Seventy weeks of Daniel 9 Part 1 The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 The Seventy weeks of Daniel

08-14-2001, 11:14 PM	#30
truthseekar Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Perth,W.A.,Aust Posts: 22	quote:Adrienne Williams ........................................... I have read several essays thoroughly debunking the various Bible prophecies, but I have yet to read anything about the one prophecy that seems most credible...the one in Daniel where Gabriel comes to him and tells him that Israel will become a nation again. .............................................. Adrienne Williams, Hears a couple of prophesys that speak for them self and appear irrefutable to me. This was written supposedly 450 bc (definitly not written by moses) concerning Jesus being like Moses. Deuteronomy 18 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. The whole book of Isaiah was put together bye 200 BC at the latest. Isaiah 9 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, and The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth-even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Hears a psalm written by David. I will only highlight the interesting bits, although the new testament was written after this and could have stolen some accounts as the crucifixion account , it would be hard to steal the whole psalm as it would totally take away the suffering of jesus Christ in the gospels. Psalm 22 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. 29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. V 28-31 are fulfilled through the fact that jesus is and has been the governing factor concerning good and evil over the worlds nations in general over the last 2000 yrs not to mention the amount of people that consider him as thay return to dust and become aware of there hopelessness and his offer of salvation. Although not all of this prophesy is completed it`s not far of it`s completion. I believe this is the Jews coming back to Israel in the end time, the reason I believe this is because the Jews that returned from Babylon about 450 bc came from Babylon and a couple of other parts of the world but this is a migration over a generation from every corner of the world and it also says god dose this as a sign of the end times in verse 12. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. If the two exiles he is talking about are Egypt and Assyria then it wouldn’t make sense as the prediction is set in the time of the end and the time of the gentiles and the time of the root of Jesse which are all some 1000 yrs in the future From Egypt and Assyrian exile. This prophesy by Paul hasn’t fully been fulfilled yet either except after 2000 yrs it finally looks like it is well in the making of another fulfilled biblical prophesy and there’s heaps more of them. Romans 11 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. I`VE JUST STARTED ON THIS. I`m going to keep it short, this is about 10% of the biblical prophesys of this book that I now off. Are these irrefutable or not???? I’d like to see other opinions on this subject of biblical prophesy??????

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