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Old 08-21-2001, 11:28 PM   #11
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Originally posted by fromdownunder:
"I think the reported cloth used to cover His head during His burial has a better possibility of being real."

Nomad - I have never heard of this before. Do you have any refences?


Hi Norm

Can I start by saying that I am not convinced of the authenticity of this relic either?

What I will say is at least the claims are far less spectacular, and what evidence we do have appears to be at least plausible.

It is called the Sudarium (literally translated as "face cloth") or Cloth of Oviedo (in Spain), and the records for it date back to at least the early 8th Century. If you would like to read more about it, I will refer you to which has a reasonably good article on the subject. A cursory google search produced hundreds of other sites, so maybe it is more popular than I had first thought.

In the meantime, you can read about it in this article:

The Other Shroud of Christ

I found the attempt to connect the Sudarium to the Shroud to be a distraction in the article, and the case appears to be circumstantial at best, but it was an interesting read.

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Old 08-22-2001, 08:49 AM   #12
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First of all, let me thank you for your honest answer, and candor in this matter. I have often wondered at other religion's take on Catholic icons and miracle claims. From my experience, much incredulity and more than a little sarcasm is directed at other Christians who see the Virgin Mary in a tortilla or pane of glass, or at those who believe in the Shroud, or those who seek pieces of the True Cross or Noah's Ark. However, little is usually done to renounce such practices, other than one or two other Christian sects to outwardly claim that Catholics are evil, and Catholicism was started by the devil.

I find it curious, as I'm sure you do, why so many might want to hinge their faith on objects that can possibly be shown as fakes. However, as history shows, fraudulant icons usually have little effect on the faithful.
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Old 08-22-2001, 08:12 PM   #13
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(must be brief)

1) the Catholic Church has no problem peddling myths. (that is a good thing, in my opinion)

2) the shroud is historically and socially valuable. A 5 watch buried 500 years becomes pricless...
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Old 08-23-2001, 08:52 AM   #14
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I really don't see much of a difference between the Catholic Church standing idly by while fake artifacts are being displayed in their churches to increase attendence by the faitful, and thus revenue, and the Protestant Churches standing idly by while Televangelists rip off the sick and elderly with fake healings which increase viewers, and thus revenue. In both cases the Organized Church (whether it be Protestant or Catholic) profits from silence, when it could easily expose the fakes. A bit telling on what their prime motivation is, don't you think?

About the "wah wah":
I was under the impression that it was a reference to the way the parents talk in the Charlie Brown cartoons. In other words, a "wah wah" book would be one in which the presentation is nearly unintelligible.
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Old 08-23-2001, 10:43 AM   #15
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I thought "wah wah" was someone with a speach impediment telling us where in Washington they hailed from.


Walla Walla, for the geographically challenged.
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Old 08-26-2001, 06:13 PM   #16
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Why would the Church denounce the Shroud when so many people refuse to accept scientific evidence exposing it as a fake? I think the Church has many things it could expose as false, but won't either way. It keeps people interested and when people have something like the Shroud to believe in, their dedication to their belief is stronger, thus giving the Church more power.
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Old 08-26-2001, 07:34 PM   #17
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Catholics seem to want to "touch or see a piece" of their faith. I went to mass one morning during Lent with a friend of mine, I had never been to a Catholic church. They had statues of Mary and various saints all around the church, and I noticed the feet of all the statues were worn. I asked my friend why this was and she said "look" and pointed, I turned around and there was a guy rubbing the feet of a statue as he prayed. This was weird to me, but it seemed to make him feel better.
I've also noticed that Mary "visions" do not happen to non-catholics...Protestants don't usually report stigmata or weeping statues or such (the faith healings and other "Charisma" would be the closest I guess). Why is this I wonder?
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Old 08-26-2001, 08:14 PM   #18
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Andrew Greeley wrote a wonderful book called The Catholic Imagination that discusses Catholicism from this point of view, in comparison to Protestantism. A first-rate work by a leading sociologist and thinker of religion.

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