Freethought & Rationalism Archive

-DM- · 08-16-2001, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sergey:
Christians are sick people. Cannibals.

Little do most Christians know how much this aspect of Christianity resembles the blood/flesh rituals of the so-called mystery religions that were characteristic of the era when Christianity was developing.

--Don--

-DM- · 08-16-2001, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede:
Sorry.

OK. None of us is perfect.

Quote:

And sorry if it is indeed typical.

It is more typical than it should be given the teachings of Christianity.

Quote:

I went back and re read the Catechism last night and felt comfortable with my interpretation. The entire passage in context speaks of Hell as being eternal self-imposed separation from God. Theologically as God is the source of all life this can only mean eternal death - as the quotation from 1 Jn in the same passage makes clear.

Yes, but there have been some recent changes in the Catholic viewpoint about hell (at least that is what I read) which would make the present viewpoint different than the traditional viewpoint. And of course, there are few believers, few liberal Christians, who are NOT comfortable with their interpretations even when those interpretations differ from traditional interpretations. In addition, there are many other Bible passages which lead to a different conclusion (which have been quoted previously) and which lead to the more traditional viewpoint of hell as eternal torment.

Quote:

In the mean time I am saddened you feel that tactics used by conservative evangelists should make something similar valid on your side.

I'm not sure that your sadness is based on anything I actually feel. In fact, I'm not sure what it is that you have in mind.

Quote:

Rather than treating religion as an enemy it would be better if non believers entered into a more sympathetic dialogue with the believers (largely the liberal end) who are willing to engage in that dialogue.

Better for whom? And why should I not consider religion an enemy when I honestly believe that it is an enemy to most of what I believe to be really important in life?

Quote:

Instead the only use of liberal theology and scholarship here is to bash more conservative believers. This further polarises arguments and makes an understanding acceptance of our differences more difficult to achieve.

What would be gained by "an understanding acceptance of our differences"?

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As for Catholicism, it is a very broad church containing wide ranges of opinion from Cardinal Ratzinger to John Dominic Crossan. Long may it so remin.

John Dominic Crossan is, in my opinion, a Roman Catholic only by a stretch of the imagination. He certainly does not represent traditional Catholicism, and it was, after all, the question of what was and was not traditional that was the primary area of our disagreement. In the end, I think it is a correct assessment that, although you seemed to think of yourself as representing traditional Christianity, I don't, and although you seemed to think that I associated only fundamentalist Christianity with traditional Christianity, I don't.

--Don--

-DM- · 08-16-2001, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich:
For one explanation of the Lazarus parable read this: LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN

If what Jesus himself allegedly said about why he taught in parables [MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12]--namely that he intended that the meaning of some of his teachings would remain hidden to at least some persons--it is not at all certain that any interpretation of this alleged parable would be a correct interpretation.

--Don--

-DM- · 08-16-2001, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:
Liberals can't win. They lack the purity of the "old time religion" and it's claim to ultimate revealed truth, but they still want to keep the dangerous fantasy alive and breathing, just repackaged for social acceptability.

The kind of dialogue non-believers need to have with liberal Christians is called psychotherapy. We need to understand why when you know at some conscious or unconscious level your religion is nonsense and reprehensible, you nevertheless cling to it and try to evolve it to make it agreeable to yourself and others.

Amen.

If you haven't done so yet, you might read the story behind Bede's reconversion on his website. You will find that there was a fairly irrational and emotional component involved.

Quote:

Bede's Conversion
In the summer of 1991 I was working in a Macdonald's in New Jersey (as one does) and found I was totally alone and totally independent for the first time in my life. This was both frightening and exhilarating. But it brought about what my girlfriend now calls an existentialist crisis. It is a sense of profound isolation that is difficult to cope with. It was in this state that God found me again.

Having convinced me He existed, God then sent a very eloquent young man to speak to me. He worked in the same Macdonald's and was a college evangelical away for a summer of sun and Jesus by the coast. Being evangelized is no surprise to an American but in England it just didn't happen and I did everything I possibly could to argue against him. He convinced me that Christianity was internally consistent but not that it was true

Back at Oxford I explored the various religious offerings available and eventually settled at a Catholic Church that still used the Latin liturgy. Several friends went there and if it wasn't true, I figured, at least the show was worth it. I remained in this in-between state for years. I believed in God and felt leanings towards Catholicism but never took the plunge. Finally, in 1998 I knew I had to make a move. I was afflicted by doubts that meant I had to know. I devoured books and surfed the Internet in search of the answers. They were often hard to find but in a few months I was happy that the only option was to cease flirting with faith and be received formally into the church taking Bede as my confirmation name.

--Don--

Sergey · 08-16-2001, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos123:
<STRONG>

You just told the rest of the world that you are an idiot.

Amos</STRONG>

Thank you, how christian of you. Maybe, just maybe I told the world I am an idiot, or it may be that you threw out your morality out the window. But lets not go on tangents here, you still haven't answered my question. Can I kill you and eat you when I am in need, Amos?

(edited for grammar and post screw-up)

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: Sergey ]

Jesus Is Bored · 08-17-2001, 01:50 AM

Ron Garret said:
The kind of dialogue non-believers need to have with liberal Christians is called psychotherapy. We need to understand why when you know at some conscious or unconscious level your religion is nonsense and reprehensible, you nevertheless cling to it and try to evolve it to make it agreeable to yourself and others.

Often there are no better options. My two cents: You may think that I am a intellectual coward, but I see no truly persuasive reason to come out as an atheist. What purpose would it serve? To alienate my parents (My Father is a evangelical pastor), my friends almost all of whom are Christians, my wonderful and loving girlfriend, and my Grandfather in these last few years of coherence he has left?
Yeah, I know that this is my own personal situation, however my situation is similar to say the "great" Dan Barker's, which he describes on this web site. Reading his book I believe that his "coming out" was an act of blatant selfishness, for many reasons. One I will give: he broke up his marriage while he had children. Were his new intellectual beliefs worth sacrificing his family cohesion?

Should I join the enlightened atheist community? Get a Darwin fish on the back of my car? Start hating our president? Sing Pro-choice songs at the local Unitarian church? Ugh.

Anyways thank you for indulging my off-topic rant. Give me my new liberal personally redefined Christianity any day. No, there is no hell but I'm not going to create one for myself here on Earth. Usually I wish that I had never found this damn website, but I keep coming back.

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jesus is Bored ]

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jesus is Bored ]

Ron Garrett · 08-17-2001, 06:22 AM

Jesus is Bored wrote a fascinating post:

Quote:

Often there are no better options.
My two cents: You may think that I am a intellectual coward, but I see no truly persuasive reason to come out as an atheist. What purpose would it serve? To alienate my parents (My Father is a evangelical pastor), my friends almost all of whom are Christians, my wonderful and loving girlfriend, and my Grandfather in these last few years of coherence he has left?

I guess it comes down to how comfortable you are living a lie, knowing that no one in your life actually knows you or has a relationship with you that is not mediated by your facade of continued belief.

I personally find the effort of maintaining two faces to be more than I can carry and have the energy left over to accomplish or enjoy anything. Is it fair to your significant others that what they know of you is a shallow deceit? Are you doing this to protect them out of nobility, or are you doing this because you so doubt your own worth as a person that you think revealing your true beliefs would cause them to reject you? I'm not in a position to know which is which.

Do we really do anyone a favor by telling them comforting lies? I suppose there may be occasions where one would think so. You certainly do yourself no favor by creating an avatar for yourself, a make-believe person that your loved ones relate to, insuring that you never have real intimacy with anyone. That seems a very sad and unhappy situation to me.

What you are doing is intellectual cowardice, as you clearly know, or you would not have anticipated the charge. I am more concerned for the effect it will have on your life to live from a position of fear that your genuine self is unacceptable to the people you love, and for them, that the person they think they love does not exist. If they truly define you and value you only because you agree with their happy delusions that's really unfortunate. I doubt their feelings for you are that one-dimensional, but at this rate you will never know, will you?

Quote:

Yeah, I know that this is my own personal situation, however my situation is similar to say the "great" Dan Barker's, which he describes on this web site. Reading his book I believe that his "coming out" was an act of blatant selfishness, for many reasons. One I will give: he broke up his marriage while he had children. Were his new intellectual beliefs worth sacrificing his family cohesion?

I've read Dan's book, heard him speak, read his other material. I've pastored myself and my marriage to an agnostic wife ended in divorce, in part because my strident beliefs frightened her as they to some extent mirrored those of her culticly religious family members. Faith was an important part of my life she could not share. It was only one factor in many, but do you really think our relationship would have been worth continuing if I pretended to be the person she wanted me to be? My experience is no one respects a mannequin. People may respect honest differences, but they will surely have contempt for shammed commonality.

Quote:

Should I join the enlightened atheist community? Get a Darwin fish on the back of my car? Start hating our president? Sing Pro-choice songs at the local Unitarian church? Ugh.

How would that be different than the masquerade you are currently engaged in? You are not an enlightened atheist. A Darwin fish will not make you so. I personally am a card-carrying member of the RNC and voted for Bush, and think he's an idiot, but still would vote for him over Al.

As for the local Unitarians, they take care of AIDS sufferers, support Amnesty International, lobby against the death penalty and do a lot of other things from altruistic motives. I've never heard the pro-choice music, but political music never seems to have a good beat or be dance-able, so I might agree with "Ugh" in that instance.

You seem to have a lot of cynicism about people who have the courage to be themselves. Why is that, I wonder?

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

Rich · 08-17-2001, 02:10 PM

Ron-

Maybe it's because he thinks about someone besides himself?!

I have been married 6 years and discovered through good times and bad that sometimes commitment and happiness of others come before self. This has proved itself out even more by having kids...

This is the same rhetoric that is espoused by fundie xians who leave their friends/families all for their beliefs...pure selfishness.

JIB you are to be admired for your thoughtfulness.

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Rich ]

Ron Garrett · 08-17-2001, 03:33 PM

Rich:

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that a person who bases their entire life on clinging to irrational falsehood would find intentional deceit, subterfuge and fraud admirable in another.

Leviticus 19:11 "`Do not steal. "`Do not lie. "`Do not deceive one another.12 "`Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"

Of course that's only your god Jesus saying it's wrong and I understand now that you measure the applicability of his sayings by volume and not content. If he really wanted you to understand that deception and fraud are sinful and not selfless, he should have devoted an entire gospel to the subject for your benefit.

You are such a hypocrite!

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

windsofchange · 08-17-2001, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bd-from-kg:
<STRONG>It is indeed unfortunate that the Catholic Church insists on taking extreme, unrepresentative positions on these matters which tend to discredit Christianity.</STRONG>

Yeah, damned Catholics ... just 'cause they INVENTED Christianity, they think they OWN it!

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08-17-2001, 01:50 AM	#36
Jesus Is Bored Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Patriot University Posts: 19	Ron Garret said: The kind of dialogue non-believers need to have with liberal Christians is called psychotherapy. We need to understand why when you know at some conscious or unconscious level your religion is nonsense and reprehensible, you nevertheless cling to it and try to evolve it to make it agreeable to yourself and others. Often there are no better options. My two cents: You may think that I am a intellectual coward, but I see no truly persuasive reason to come out as an atheist. What purpose would it serve? To alienate my parents (My Father is a evangelical pastor), my friends almost all of whom are Christians, my wonderful and loving girlfriend, and my Grandfather in these last few years of coherence he has left? Yeah, I know that this is my own personal situation, however my situation is similar to say the "great" Dan Barker's, which he describes on this web site. Reading his book I believe that his "coming out" was an act of blatant selfishness, for many reasons. One I will give: he broke up his marriage while he had children. Were his new intellectual beliefs worth sacrificing his family cohesion? Should I join the enlightened atheist community? Get a Darwin fish on the back of my car? Start hating our president? Sing Pro-choice songs at the local Unitarian church? Ugh. Anyways thank you for indulging my off-topic rant. Give me my new liberal personally redefined Christianity any day. No, there is no hell but I'm not going to create one for myself here on Earth. Usually I wish that I had never found this damn website, but I keep coming back. [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jesus is Bored ] [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jesus is Bored ]

08-17-2001, 02:10 PM	#38
Rich Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Aliso Viejo, CA , USA Posts: 394	Ron- Maybe it's because he thinks about someone besides himself?! I have been married 6 years and discovered through good times and bad that sometimes commitment and happiness of others come before self. This has proved itself out even more by having kids... This is the same rhetoric that is espoused by fundie xians who leave their friends/families all for their beliefs...pure selfishness. JIB you are to be admired for your thoughtfulness. [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Rich ]

08-17-2001, 03:33 PM	#39
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	Rich: I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that a person who bases their entire life on clinging to irrational falsehood would find intentional deceit, subterfuge and fraud admirable in another. Leviticus 19:11 "`Do not steal. "`Do not lie. "`Do not deceive one another.12 "`Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" Of course that's only your god Jesus saying it's wrong and I understand now that you measure the applicability of his sayings by volume and not content. If he really wanted you to understand that deception and fraud are sinful and not selfless, he should have devoted an entire gospel to the subject for your benefit. You are such a hypocrite! [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

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