Seeker of the Truth

Kosh,

Thanks. I will try that out and see if it works.

I have also sent an email to Larry, one of the Administrator and ask for his opinion.

Seeker

Ron Garrett

Few things annoyed me more as a pastor than to have someone insist to me that the Bible said such and such and didn't say such and such when it was painfully obvious that like Truthseekar they were scripturally illiterate and had no intention of ever becoming otherwise as such might threaten their surety with what God had not said that they wish he had and vice versa.

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

Kosh

here we go again

So... what you're saying is that if one
part of something is found to be in error
or falacious, then the entire thing should
be disregarded? Hmm.....

Yes, shame shame on you Seekar of Truth!
Only Christians are allowed to use scripture
out of context to prove their point
(witness the supposed fullfilled "prophecies"
of the OT listed in Mathew).

Grumpy

You might have wanted to check that Bible, pal. Let's take a look-see, shall we?

I don't see anything in there about Abel giving his best with all his heart. Nothing about Cain being reluctant in his offering. It was God who chose favorites: he liked meat and didn't like produce. Yes, Cain became jealous and murderous, but this bad behavior was after God made his preference known.

There is no clue, not one hint, that Cain's motives were what soured his offering. I dismiss YHWH's lecture in 4:7 as being cryptic. God seems to be saying, 'I didn't accept your sacrifice, therefore there must have been something wrong with you, Cain.' Unfortunately, this is couched in a goofy "If" clause. If God meant for readers to understand that Cain's offering was inadequate because of his attitude, then say so!

All that aside, Seeker of Truth is to be scolded once more for posting a monster quotation without attribution and without much of a point. Keep it focused, keep it original.

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Grumpy ]

Seeker of the Truth

Grumpy,

I think Ron had replied to part of your posting already.

As to Cain and Abel, God's favoritism is the cause of disharmony among the two brothers.
No clue ? Read Gen.4:5 <but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. SO Cain was very angry and his face was downcast.

The word SO signifies a cause and effect relationship.

Contrast this with CH, AC, RO.
e.g. Romans 2:11 <For God does not show favoritism.>

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality or favouritism. He treats all alike.

Ron comments on Seekar says it all, as I had said. (Notice, I am Seeker of the truth and 'Seekar' is another person).

Originality ? I never said I wrote the Bible myself, did I ?

Am I in a story contest forum ? If not, are you in the right forum ?

Maybe if you read the Bible more, God may inspire you to understand his words better.

Maybe if you read the Bible less, your thinking would be more rational.


Seeker of the truth



[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Seeker of the Truth ]

Seeker of the Truth

Kosh,

Nothing to add here.

But a big applause.

SeekEr of the Truth (not SeekAr)

truthseekar

Seeker of the truth,
First I would like to state that I am not convinced of the bibles authentisity and am by no means a fundy and don`t even believe in the creation story as such. Although I do like to look at the subject (what ever subject it may be) rationally to see the facts in the subject and I do not believe that your argument holds any seriousness at all (as most comparisons are out of context). And I don`t think that I am god or have the answers as I am searching everything and realy don`t know what I believe but I am educated in the bible enough to no that this is as sham, which seems to be common fundamental atheists propaganda (atheists are as bad as Christians at these irrational delusions).

Any way I will try to give my point by addressing a few of these issues and scriptures starting from the beginning as I wouldn’t won’t you to think I`m choosing the ones that suite me but this could be done on most of the scriptures you gave. But to keep it simple, I`ll start from were you started geneses and I don`t no how far I`ll get but I will try to make my point. As it`s not personal against you as much as I am starting to take personally the constant atheist approach with all there clams against Christianity and the bible and thay have ended up just like these stupid Christians worshipping golden calf’s. (Pastor I bet you worships a golden calf). So if you are a genuine truth seeker, help me discerne the truth from the lie on both sides so we can both get some understanding on things without one side feeding lying propaganda and the other side feeding cow worship (stupidity of religion)

To start with if the bible contradicted that much then I now a lot of Christians are stupid but not all of them. I’ve met some real smart ones that taught me a thing or two about this book and I don`t think these guys are so gullible.

First my point on the issues

Quote: kosh
-------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Truthseekar:

so as a truth seeker myself I would have to reject your whole doctrine on this statement as your document is falsified to prove your argument (definitly not a trait of a truth seeker).
-------------------------------------------
Here we go again
So... what you're saying is that if one
part of something is found to be in error
or fallacious, then the entire thing should
be disregarded? Hmm.....


Cosh,
Not at all, this was not my original quote but I was holding this quote on seeker O truth as he clamed it in his original post.

quote:Ron Garrett,
Few things annoyed me more as a pastor than to have someone insist to me that the Bible said such and such and didn't say such and such when it was painfully obvious that like Truthseekar they were scripturally illiterate and had no intention of ever becoming otherwise as such might threaten their surety
------------------------------------------

I agree with you hear pastor (the lake of patience for fools that is) although I find it hard to believe that you make sence of the original post being a pastor and all yet you think I have relayed fantasy (as a scripturally illiterate person) if you are realy a pastor we will see who knows the bible. Could you confirm these contradictions and can’t you see there was a plain difference the in sacrifice between Cain and able (every other pastor I now can) and personally I don`t think it was that abel used blood and Cain didn`t (if that is the opinion you are of) as even David says that the lord wants the sacrifice of praise and not the sacrifice of animals.

I will elaborate (scripturally for you paster) on why I relayed this story off the top of my head of my version of this MYTH?? (Biblically).

Quote: Grumpy
-----------------------------------------
, You might have wanted to check that Bible, pal. Let's take a look-see, shall we?
I don't see anything in there about Abel giving his best with all his heart. Nothing about Cain being reluctant in his offering. It was God who chose favourites: he liked meat and didn't like produce. Yes, Cain became jealous and murderous, but this bad behaviour was after God made his preference known.
------------------------------------------
O.K. Pal,
I`ll take a look? Although I think it is important to include verse 2 as well as you didn`t bother with that????????
From Genesis

4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
.

4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

It says that Cain worked the field and able worked the animals

This is were I get my assumptions from. First notice that Cain bought an offering (that’s all it says, just an offering) but in the next verse it says a lot more about abeles offering for example able bought the FIRSTBORN (this was special to abel) and of the FAT THEREOF (in otherworlds the best of his property) and the lord respected this offering so notice he dosn`t give this respect to Cains EFFORT.

Why because it was a blood sacrifice???? , I don`t think so as it depended on the one working with anamals to give an animal sacrifice and those of the field to offer that up (as still done by many cultures through time).
This was were blood sacrifices started as god showed his approval to able for his FAITHFULNESS to god, not because of a blood sacrifice but the sacrifice of praise was in abels heart but not cane’s heart
So able and his line used blood sacrifice to please god and then the blood sacrifice becomes very relevant to the reason for god using it as a tool to save man by abels elegance. (Sorry am I speculating to much for you pastor, well I`ll try stick to scripture for you.)
So this is were I get my theories from
THE BIBLE

Starting from genesis.
----------------------------------------
GE 1:3-5 on the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 the sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

This is very interesting and appears to be either a contradiction (as you have said seeker), this partickalur point interests me greatly and I will think about this more.

But that leaves the rest of it????????

---------------------------------
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.


Trees were definitly created before man (according to the bible any way) GE 1:11-12, 26-27 is there creation.
GE 2:4-9 also stated Verse 5
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


From v 9 I don`t see how this is apart of what was just created as much as what is prepared for man afterward.
9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

-----------------------------------------

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

In GE 2, 19 I don`t necessarily get the impression that god made them at that time but that he bought them to Adam at that time.

This isn’t proof (especially for a fundy).
------------------------------------------
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

I can’t see a contradiction hear foreshore. Man and woman were created on the 6th day (a generation according to kjv ch2 v 4) in gen ch 1 and then seem to elaborate on the specific creation of man and then womaning in the next chapter.
------------------------------------------
GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth, which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)
This seems to be a theological issue more than a contradiction to me.
--------------------------------------------

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

God had changed his mind on the creation of man, as man had become evil, not so much his own handy work but what had become of it.

5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This isn’t a contradiction
--------------------------------------------
GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.
This issue to can get tricky as to how when and were this name Jehovah is used in manuscripts in what terms meaning to call upon the name of the lord and I agree this needs looking at.
------------------------------------------
GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

This depends on how you look at it as god warned Adam he would sourly die on the day he ate it and on that day his death was determined as he was immortal before this.
So my point to all this is that the bible dosn`t contradict as easily as some make out. Although there are some interesting points in your thread, the seeker, thay are mixed with more stuff that does not contradict and therefore it will take a bit of sifting through as I don`t see any shore contradictions (except the first one I posted) that would prove to my fundy mate that the book he worships is unauthentic and he is no fool, he is very well educated and it`s hard to prove to him that the bible is not gods word. I think he might even be convincing me of that as I doubt it and constantly challenge him to my demise.

for me ,someone who is still undesided, I think it takes more faith to be an athiest than a christian with some of the propaganda I hear from athiests when I ask them questians about their faith in the fact that there is no god. I find that hard to believe.

and there hate toward christians is usally miss placed or so I was when I was a shore fundamental athiest always looking for a christian to tear down. I remember , the problem was I wanted the truth and wasn`t going to get it by preaching what athiesim taught me , and so I am on the fence and find both christian and athiests full of false religions and lies.

truthseekar nows the truth is out there?????


[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: truthseekar ]

sailor74

The "allegory" of cain and abel;

first we have to understand the meaning of the names, cain means :tiller of the soil" We are cain when we dig up from our earth (mind). I am sure that many times you have asked someone "where did you dig that up."
Our ideas which originate from the left side (brain) are Cain.

Abel means " keeper of the sheep" Sheep are divine thoughts. In the christmas story the shepherds are the first ones to see the christ. They were keeping watch over their sheep (thoughts). this means that those who watch over divine thoughts, through meditation are the first to experience christ consciousness. So Cain is the left hemisphere of the brain, and Abel is the right.


Genisis 4 verses 3&4, Cain brings the fruit of the ground as an offering to the lord. In other words that which grew out of his MUND. His own IDEAS. Abel brought the firstlings of his flock (thoughts). The flock is sheep, divine thoughts. the energy of the right side. the importance of the allegory surrounds the word "firstlings". let us look at 1 cor. 15:45, "the first was made a living soul, the last a quickening spirit. In 1 cor. 14:46, this is made a bit clearer, "that was not first which is spiritul, but which is natural". So Abel sacrifices the natural part. That is exactly what happens in meditation.


One of the things that first strikes me and gives me pause to consider this as literal is the fact that we have a primeval place occupied by two emglish people, Adam & Eve. the secong thing that is hard for me to consider is that the entire world is presently scourged by cancer, rape, wars, violence of all sorts, and it is all because these two people ate a piece of fruit that was givin to them by a talking snake. i dont know about you, but i find that a little difficult to swallow. The third thing that would make it clear to us that this is allegory and not literalism is the fact that one of the main characters in the drams is a talking snake. I would like to announce to the world that withgout any question, there is one certain fact. SNAKES DO NOT TALK.


Unknown nudity is another factor taht leads us into understanding that this is myth. our two english friends are running around this primeval garden totally naked but they do not realize this ata all. They have no idea that they are naked? Maybe theres a lesson here instead if literal interpretation.

So the best part, how do our friends find out they are naked? The talking snake tells them. Now keep in mind, the fundamentalists are trying to get our school systems to teach creationism. This is the basis of their creation study. Two english people that do not know they are naked being coerced to eat a piece of fruit by a talking snake. Now I think we have raised enough question for us to reach a conclusion that the genesis story is not LITERAL.

What does it all mean?

As we go along with the story it will become clear that genesis lays out in allegorical form the evolution of the MIND. The bible as a MIND book, naw! really? lets see!

So if we read the story psychologically, We have EVE, the symbol of the mental aspect of our nature. Eve, our thoughts, considers the temptation from the snake, our spine, our flesh. Our mind communicates with our body (ADAM), and the act is carried out. Psychologically coerrect. Spirit (eve) Body (adam) and carnal mind (snake).

No problem. no religios, athiest quarrel.


Now, the name of the garden where our heroes dwell is EDEN, it means delight. In gen 2:8, we are shown the location of this garden. The scripture says the garden is EASTWARD, in Eden. When you look north East is always on the right side. Therefore the garden of delight is to the RIGHT. Then right hemisphere of the brain, your spiritual side.

When we shutdown the thoughts of the mind we are sacrificing the natural part, so we can be given that which is spiritual. So we see why Abels sacrifice was acceptable and Cains was not. Look at gen. 4:4, "the lord had respect to Abel, in other words this is the way that we please God (the higher self)Sacrificing the natural part in meditation by taking no thought.


Still not convonced?

Gen.4:5 Unto Cain he had no respect. Ideas, techniques. Those things that come out of our minds and the minds of others are not acceptable. They are the FIRST BORN, and must be killed. Now you know why the bible is always talking about murder and killing the first born etc. its all about your THOUGHTS. The bible is one big mind book.


Now we get to the part where Cain plots the death of Abel. Remember this is allegory. It really is referring to the CARNAL part of your mind that works dilligently to overcome any learnings of the spiritual. The part that is in harmony with the universe is Abel, can be destroyed by the part that is not (Cain).

Yet both parts, carnal and spiritual are important for us to function as humans. There are countries that are very spiritual but have little material wealth, consider India, this is Abel; There are countries that have much material wealth, but little spirit, consider America. This is Cain. There must be a balance, one should not kill out the other.


Now for the kicker and to prove, this is an allegory. Read gen.4:14 carefully, The suggestion is that Cain will be slain again and again. Notice the wording. "Everyone that finds me shall slay me." This means there will be a revulsion of the lower mind. Where do you see that.

You see it in Religion. There is an attitude of totally eliminating any involvement with the lower carnal mind, with the flesh. But!


Genisis 4:15 says that a MARK is place on Cain to protect him. It implies that all life functions with POSITIVE and NEGATUVE (yin and yang) if you will. It is inherrent in nature. so the scripture tells us that God will not allow the destruction of Cain (the lowe mind) why? because it is absolutely necesary to live and function. But the lower mind should not hold sway over the the higher mind. Cain must take second place to Abel. THEPHYSICAL MUST TAKE SECOND PLACE TO THE SPIRITUAL. or it will destruct.

This is the truth behind the story, now copy this and show it tour fundamentalist preachers and sunday bible thumpers that believe they know something.


editied by danny.

truthseekar

sailor74 ,
Were did you get all that from?
If I tryed to show that to a fundy mate he would die laughing at your theology. How can I use this for anything biblical??

mayby it`s simply hebrew myth on the creation of everything as this wouldn`t be uncommen considering most ancient cultures had a story about creation but none of them are fact??????

so about all we do get is to develop this myth into something that means something spiritual , as you seem to have done.

the problem is the fundys think it is litral (in genral ) and I`m having a hard time convinsing my mate otherwise and some how I can`t see that this would help on any issues with them.

this is my new challenge as seeker of truth stated originaly.)
GE 1:3-5 on the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 the sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

I do have a question though sailor???

you said "Sacrificing the natural part in meditation by taking no thought.

to me to meditate is to think about somethink.so as to change your state of mind, say from frustration to peace , to do this I meditate on something good and that works .

my questian is how do you achieve anything by meditating on nothing .

if you meditate on nothing wouldn`t you end up with nothing left uptop as I have seen from so many budists. there medidtation on nothing seems to turn them into something worse than a bad pot smoker.

thay speak with a slow speach and can`t realy keep up with much in the real world and appear very lazy to me as a direct result of meditating on nothing to reach navanah , or should I say nothingness.
even the bible teachers to meditate on the law of god so tell me what does this meditating on nothing do for you???????
except to leave you empty.

sailor74

Truthseeker

I have given you the real meaning of the cain and abel story, i know its hard for the uninitiated to understand that the bible is nothing more than a metaphysical book on the mind.


consider in genisis it says "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"

now letter means literal most everyone knows this, elsewhere in the bible it says i utter dark sayings of old, what are dark sayings, if not metaphysical terms. elsewhere it says all things are an allegory.

So we are left to find the spiritual truths in the scriptures. non literal stuff, or else christians should pluck out their eyes and and cutoff their hands if they want to believe it literally. Which the bible warns against.

AS for taking no thought in meditation, this is true, because it transforms you some how, it calms you down and you see the world differently, as if it were a world of chattering monkeys. see the movie. circle of iron for this spiritual truth.


maybe zen monks appear to be brain dead to you, but maybe they know something you know not of.

It has helped me tremendously, thats all i can say

now consider this scripture. i forgot the verse right now, but this is it


God admonished the scribes and pharisees for not going in themselves, and for not suffering the people to go in.

now this is meditation plain and simple.

edited by danny...also seeker of truth 20 years......read everything on: massey, kuhn, blavatsky, homer curtiss, robert collier and joseph murphy.

and the christ conspiracy. by achyra s.