outhouse

Because the movement existed before it was written down.



The gospels deal with a Galilean who went into the temple at Passover and was put to death by Pilate and his resurrection.

Pilate was real, Passover was real, the corruption in the temple was real, a socioeconomic division between Hellenistic Judaism and Galilean Peasants was real.

War looming over Jews head's and in their eyes "god" coming soon and destruction was at hand. Hell that happened when the temple fell due to Galilean Zealots and the socioeconomic diviisions.

maryhelena

Yes, that's the gospel story. Are you claiming that this gospel story is an historical account, that events in this story are historical? If so - you know as well as I do that there is no evidence to support such a claim....which means your simply speculating...

outhouse

True but, with Pilate being real, Passover was real, the corruption in the temple was real, a socioeconomic division between Hellenistic Judaism and Galilean Peasants was real. Crucifixions were real.

There is a lot of evidence for plausibility since it was written around real events within living memory.



Or they used the OT to create a story, that spread in oral tradition, even though it could be falsified by anyone.

Tristan Scott

Yes, I agree with 3. All three of the synoptics make referrence to the old prophecies, and to their being fulfilled by the presence of Jesus.

Belief in the coming of a Messiah (Mashiakh) by the Jews of 1st c. Palestine was pretty widespread. Yes, there were the prophecies, not only of Malachi, which the Synoptics refer to re. John the Baptist, as well as Isaiah, (Chapter2) who claimed that the messiah would bring all Jews together polically and create world peace. Along with this, I think you also have to consider the recent events in Palestine-the fall of the very popular Maccabees, who founded the Hasmonean Dynasty that ruled over Judea for 100 years in the 1st and second c. BCE.

Pompey defeated the Hasmoneons in 64 BCE, and the Romans ended the Dynasty 27 years later when they installed the Edomite, Herod the Great. While Herod claimed to be a Jew, he was not accepted by the people as such and as a result there was a great deal of unrest. Under pressure from the Romans to keep his people in line Herod married into the Maccabees (a fascinating story in itself), and due to his jealousy over their popularity ended up having them killed. The reason I think all this is significant is because I think it's important to understand that along with the prophecies we have the extreme disappointment in the end of the Hasmoneans making the Jews of Palestine even more desperate for a savior, who turned out to be not Jesus, but instead Simon Bar Kokhba, in the 2nd c., and that didn't work out too well for them. In the interim we have Paul and the split between the Christian Jews from the mainstream Jews.

Chili

That is because what became known as heaven and hell is prior to religion, and 'religion proper,' according to mythmarker insight, is there only so total destruction it will not happen again, and again.

In Anthro 101 we learn that the mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe only, and that verily means that freedom of religion is contrary to this and factually opens the gate to hell and is why today we seem to bomb the wrong country again and again. Galilee equals the coccoon stage where transformation takes takes place that we call Purgatory (tm) today. This is where the messianic movement is real and for keeps to be either comedy in heaven or tragedy in hell. It is just a mind journey, mind you, but that is exactly where also heaven (syzen) and hell are known (synousia), and for which Passover is like a protection shield so the innocent believer will not get raped into hell instead of heaven in God's own time for him . . . to make sure that all three, mind, body and soul will be transformed instead of just mind like new wine in old skins.

It is really very simple, and be sure to understand that no assistence by fiery evangelist is needed for this, and not wanted either or Passover itself would be wrong.

maryhelena

Plausibility? Yep, a simple story. Could be true. A Jewish man gets crucified and some people create stories about him. And all we have to do today is separate the real story from the exaggeration. OK. So....one Jewish male crucified by Pilate ie. Rome acquiesced, sanctioned, the crucifixion. An occupying power executes a Jewish man. That's historically plausibly. What such a man did to deserve, or not deserve, this crucifixion is a secondary issue. Now, all you need to do is find such a man. And that, methinks, will be looking for a needle in a haystack....an impossible task. Thus, be content with ones plausible story - for that is all that one will ever have....plausibility.

What prevented the story from being falsified was the backbone, the core, of historical reality that it reflected. With the passing of the years and historical realities faded into the background, the pseudo-historical story would be viewed as history. Today, our modern minds seek more from that story - we seek it's origins, we seek the source that generated that story. We know the story - we seek it's source. We can, of course, just enjoy the story - or discard it - but it's a story that has held considerable influence on western culture - and it's good to get to the bottom of it.....for no other reason than wanting to know.....

maryhelena

The Hasmoneans - that's right in my ballpark.......

There are a number of threads I started with reference to the Hasmoneans - so don't want to hijack this thread with, for some members, old ground. Later, later - I'll get back to my old stomping ground.....

(I'm on countdown for a very big move - and will soon be without my own regular internet for a while.....)

Chili

The real crucifixion wherein only the ego/persona or mask is crucified cannot be real as a historic event (while it is real nonetheless in a metaphysical way). This is very simple and simply not be possible because 'a person' cannot annihilate himself, wherein "Nihilism" or as today called "Minimalism" is never quite good enough because the very 'I' as prime mover must be annihilated to reach climax in this.

aa5874

[Edit]

I present the written statement of Aristides and others of antiquity NOT your flawed opinion.

It must be noted that Aristides did claim Jesus the Son of God came down from heaven and was pierced by the Jews on earth which completely contradicts you.

Based on Aristides, Justin, Tertullian, Origen, Ignatius, the Gospels and others you may be the one who is actively fooling people with your claim that the crucified Jesus of the Jesus cult was never on earth.

The Jesus cult did start with the claim that Jesus the Son of God came down from heaven and LIVED in the daughter of man, did have 12 disciples, and was PIERCED by the Jews.

Aristides "Apology"Your opinion about the start of the Jesus cult of Christians is wholly flawed because you cannot ever present any actual evidence to show that the Jesus cult started with a heavenly crucified Jesus.

outhouse

What did he do.

Historically Pilate is said to have had a hatred for Galileans.

Second, social unrest is historical, as was the tension during passover.

All Pilate and Caiaphas wanted was peace.


It would not take much, A peasant making a demontration trying to get everyone riled up would have done it.

And there was a lot of reasons for peasants to rebel.

factually the temple coin had Melqarts picture on it, a pagan deity. I know you know this, it was in your previous work.

The Saducees were a hated group and the temple corrupt with Roman infection and influence.


This celibration of freedom of oppression, was ripe for insurrection and sedition. The exact charges give to Jesus character in luke