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Old 09-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #21
stephan huller
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And with respect to this Roger:

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Christian literature had no claims to admission at any period prior to the 4th century.
There is this:

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About the same time, in the reign of Commodus, our condition became more favorable, and through the grace of God the churches throughout the entire world enjoyed peace, and the word of salvation was leading every soul, from every race of man to the devout worship of the God of the universe. So that now at Rome many who were highly distinguished for wealth and family turned with all their household and relatives unto their salvation [Eusebius 5.21.1]
I am specifically claiming that from Commodus to Diocletian, Christian books were almost certainly in the libraries of Rome.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:08 AM   #22
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Another reference in Tertullian regarding "Praxeas" (Jerome and other later writers 'Praxias' a real name at least) "there is his own handwriting (or 'manuscript' i.e. chirographum) in evidence remaining among the carnally-minded, in whose society the deed (gesta) then took place; afterwards nothing was heard of him (exinde silentium)." And again "the tares of Praxeas had then everywhere shaken out their seed, which having lain hid for some while, with its vitality concealed under a mask, has now broken out with fresh life." Moreover, there is a depressing sense of resignation that the writings of this man have control of the official Church despite his apparent disappearance into silence when he continues "it be rooted up, if the Lord will, even now; but if not now, in the day when all bundles of tares shall be gathered together, and along with every other stumbling-block shall be burnt up with unquenchable fire."

How would Tertullian know that the writings of Praxeas (= Irenaeus according to Hall, Callistus according to Harnack and others) were 'everywhere' unless Christian writings were in the public libraries?
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:17 AM   #23
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Interesting theory I just came up with.

Sam asks where were there public libraries? Rome, Carthage certainly.

Let's suppose for a moment that at least some of the works Celsus used were found in the Eirenaion (Templum Pacis) before 192 CE. But also, many Christian writings were also available to two Carthaginians - Tertullian and Cyprian. Carthage as we just saw from Apuleius's example, had a large public library too. Both Tertullian and Cyprian copied Irenaeus from some source. Tertullian also used Justin, Theophilus (Against Hermogenes and probably Book Two of Against Heresies).
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:23 AM   #24
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Have you considered the possibility of private libraries? As I understand it, these were in fact more numerous than public ones, at least in the 1st century, and maybe the 2nd as well...
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:25 AM   #25
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With respect to Martial and inclusion in libraries of his time I find this:

XVII. TO THE LIBRARY OF JULIUS MARTIALIS.

Library of a charming country retreat, whence the reader can see the neighbouring town, if, amid more serious poems, there be any room for the sportive Thalia, you may place even upon the lowest shelf these seven books which I send you corrected by the pen of their author. This correction gives them their value. And do you, O library of Julius Martialis, to which I dedicate this little present, you that will be celebrated and renowned over the whole globe, guard this earnest of my affection!
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #26
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Twenty eight, possibly twenty nine public libraries in ancient Rome alone http://books.google.com/books?id=KSZ...q=open&f=false
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:39 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Writings the epistles of Paul cited many times by Celsus, the apologetic works of Justin of which Eric Osborn writes:


Quote:
there is sufficient similarity between the ways in which Celsus and Justin use it (the inexpressible God that Plato gives in the Timaeus) to suggest the acquaintance of Celsus with what Justin had said. Particular arguments also suggest that Celsus knew Justin. Justin's account of the testimony of the prophets and its confirmation in history is parallel to Celsus' to Celsus' account of the writings of wise men which continue to be valid. Justin argues that Moses and the prophets precede the Greeks who are dependent on them. Celsus argues that Moses received his account of the creation from the wise men who were before him. Celsus claims that Christian penitence rests upon a misunderstanding of a statement in Plato. Justin had claimed that the pagans had borrowed from Moses the necessity for cleansing before entering the presence of God. Justin claimed to find in the second letter of (pseudo) Plato, an account of the Trinity. Celsus believes that Celsus believes that the same passage shows where the Christians get their idea of the kingdom of God. Justin shows that Christians must be on the side of law and order. Celsus echoes the words of Justin in his accusation of disloyalty. Celsus accuses Christians of specific disloyalty to the emperor, whose end was anticipated. Justin uses words which could be misunderstood in this way. Celsus answers Justin's criticism of the demi-gods of Greek mythology in a way which suggests acquaintance with what Justin said. Both Justin and Celsus consider the possible similarity of the sacraments and pagan mysteries. Celsus claims that there are similarities which Justin denies. Justin's account of the resurrection, in which he uses the metaphor of seed, is also criticised by Celsus. Finally, as noticed in an earlier chapter, Celsus' theme of true logos is also the theme of Justin.
Your passage does not even mention Paul or the Pauline Corpus.

Origen did SPECIFICALLY state that Celsus did not mention Paul.

Against Celsus 1
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And I do not know how Celsus should have forgotten or not have thought of saying something about Paul, the founder, after Jesus, of the Churches that are in Christ......
Once one reads the works attributed to Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Cassius Dio it becomes extremely clear that there were NO Jesus stories in Libraries of the Roman Empire about a resurrected Jewish Messianic ruler called Jesus who was believed to be the Son of God, Creator, Savior and Messianic ruler of the Roman Empire.

Any person who attempted to publicly preach that a Jew called Jesus was God Creator, Savior and Messianic ruler of the Roman Empire would receive IMMINENT death.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:09 AM   #28
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Your passage does not even mention Paul or the Pauline Corpus.
Nonsense. He cites Paul many times. Learn to read a book from beginning to end not just through Google search. Luckily I came from a time before the internet and obtained my copy of Chadwick's translation and coveted it like a precious object. The binding eventually fell off and I was left with this crumbling manuscript that I had to store in a shoebox. I think I have read Origen's commentary on Celsus's work 56 times from back to front. Attempted no less than five reconstructions of Celsus's original work (like Hoffmann). I wasn't stupid enough to publish my scribblings in this case.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
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Your passage does not even mention Paul or the Pauline Corpus.
Nonsense. He cites Paul many times. Learn to read a book from beginning to end not just through Google search.
I showed you the BEGINNING of "Against Celsus" and it contradicts you. Celsus did NOT write anything about Paul.

You are in DENIAL.

Origen SPECIFICALLY stated that Celsus wrote NOTHING of Paul.


In the ENTIRE "Against Celsus" there is NO mention of a single library any where inb the Roman Empire with the Jesus stories about a resurrected Messianic ruler, God Creator and Savior of the habitable earth.



Again, the passage you quoted does not mention Paul or the Pauline Corpus.

Did you NOT post this?

Quote:
there is sufficient similarity between the ways in which Celsus and Justin use it (the inexpressible God that Plato gives in the Timaeus) to suggest the acquaintance of Celsus with what Justin had said. Particular arguments also suggest that Celsus knew Justin. Justin's account of the testimony of the prophets and its confirmation in history is parallel to Celsus' to Celsus' account of the writings of wise men which continue to be valid. Justin argues that Moses and the prophets precede the Greeks who are dependent on them. Celsus argues that Moses received his account of the creation from the wise men who were before him. Celsus claims that Christian penitence rests upon a misunderstanding of a statement in Plato. Justin had claimed that the pagans had borrowed from Moses the necessity for cleansing before entering the presence of God. Justin claimed to find in the second letter of (pseudo) Plato, an account of the Trinity. Celsus believes that Celsus believes that the same passage shows where the Christians get their idea of the kingdom of God. Justin shows that Christians must be on the side of law and order. Celsus echoes the words of Justin in his accusation of disloyalty. Celsus accuses Christians of specific disloyalty to the emperor, whose end was anticipated. Justin uses words which could be misunderstood in this way. Celsus answers Justin's criticism of the demi-gods of Greek mythology in a way which suggests acquaintance with what Justin said. Both Justin and Celsus consider the possible similarity of the sacraments and pagan mysteries. Celsus claims that there are similarities which Justin denies. Justin's account of the resurrection, in which he uses the metaphor of seed, is also criticised by Celsus. Finally, as noticed in an earlier chapter, Celsus' theme of true logos is also the theme of Justin.
Please, read "Against Celsus" before you make fallacious statements about what Celsus wrote.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:40 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
okay Roger what about Christians living at that time would they have objected to having their books in the library
I shouldn't think so! But remember we are talking about an illegal and despised group.
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