mountainman

Or an overlooked thesis.

In any event I have posted material above comparing the Pseudo-Isidorian forgery of the 9th century to the hypothetical Pseudo-Eusebian forgery of the 4th century and we are not here to exchange insults we are here to examine the evidence, the DATING of the evidence and its implications. I have tried to point out that the dating of the evidence is extremely important for without a correct chronological date/time stamp the identification and migration of forgeries through a mass of families of manuscripts cannot be adequately analysed.


All the dates given on the ECW website are entirely conjectural.



In the thread on "Who were the therapeutae" it was mentioned that one scholar from the 19th century (overturned by Conybear) conjected that the "Vita Contemplavita" of Philo was a 4th century forgery. There is probably no doubt that the Philoan corpus is mostly genuine, but a small number of documents, out of style and character with the rest of Philo's corpus, may have been introduced in the 4th century.

The existence of Jewish "theraputai" mentioned in VC was a method of getting the people to slowly forget the fact that the "therapuetai" of the Roman Empire were the pagan "worshippers" at the pagan temples.

Christianity was introduced with masses of official imperial publications in the 4th century, asserting it could trace its roots, via a lineage of bishops who preserved the apostolic tradition back to the "Evangelists" who wrote the "Gospels".






εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller

Before going into the relative merits of these claims, an important clarification. What authority do you, Pete the mountainman have, with respect to the writings of the Church Fathers? Please identify:

1. which texts of the early Church Fathers you have actually read from start to finish.
2. In what language did you read them.
3. What modern studies of these same Patristic writers you have read.

My guess is that you haven't read anything by anyone on this subject - all of which makes your efforts to demonstrate that they were 'retrojected' from the fourth century even more laughable. What do you know about fourth century Christianity? What do you really know about second century Christianity? How then can you make an argument for one being 'falsified' in the age of the other?

A parallel worthless claim:

a) I have never listened much to Polka
b) I have never listened much to Reggae
nevertheless
c) I am going to make the case that all the songs on Bob Marley's Greatest Hits are really stolen from polka artists I stumbled upon in Wikipedia

oh yeah, let's not forget my motivation

d) I hate reggae.

stephan huller

Oh, and while you are at it, please explain to me how this:

http://academia.edu/4009883/Eusebius...ebian_Alliance

fits into your fourth century conspiracy theory.

stephan huller

How many works by Eusebius have you actually read in order to justify your rejection of all that has been written about Eusebius? How many studies of Eusebius's writings have you actually read? It will be interesting to even see what percentage of Eusebian texts you have actually read given the fact that many haven't even been translated into English. Here, more or less, is the list. Again, which have you read from beginning to end:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...is_PG%2019-24/

-
[ ] Antiquorum martyriorum collectio.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:12 136K
[ ] Commentaria in Psalmos.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:13 6.8M
[ ] Commentaria in Psalmos_1.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:13 327K
[ ] Commentarius in Isaiam.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:14 2.9M
[ ] Constantini imperatoris oratio ad coetum sanctorum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:14 306K
[ ] Contra Hieroclem.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:14 276K
[ ] Contra Marcellum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:14 423K
[ ] De ecclesiastica theologia.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 926K
[ ] De laudibus Constantini.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 450K
[ ] De martyribus Palaestinae Recensio brevior.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 235K
[ ] De martyribus Palaestinae Recensio prolixior.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 166K
[ ] De mensuris et ponderibus.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 83K
[ ] Demonstratio evangelica.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 2.9M
[ ] De solemnitate paschali.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 124K
[ ] De theophania.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 230K
[ ] De vitis prophetarum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:15 109K
[ ] Epistula ad Alexandrum Alexandrinum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 75K
[ ] Epistula ad Caesarienses.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 97K
[ ] Epistula ad Carpianum ad canones evangeliorum praemissa.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 78K
[ ] Epistula ad Constantiam Augustam.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 90K
[ ] Epistula ad Euphrationem.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 77K
[ ] Epistula ad Flacillum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 73K
[ ] Fragmenta in Danielem.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 85K
[ ] Fragmenta in Hebraeos.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 72K
[ ] Fragmenta in Lucam.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 371K
[ ] Fragmenta in proverbia.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 72K
[ ] Generalis elementaria introductio.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 1.3M
[ ] Generalis elementaria introductio Fragmenta.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:16 76K
[ ] Historia ecclesiastica.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:17 2.0M
[ ] In cantica canticorum interpretatio.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:17 104K
[ ] Onomasticon.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:17 391K
[ ] Passio sanctorum decem martyrum Aegyptiorum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:17 82K
[ ] Praeparatio evangelica.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:17 1.6M
[ ] Praeparatio evangelica__.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 3.9M
[ ] Quaestiones evangelicae ad Marinum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 148K
[ ] Quaestiones evangelicae ad Stephanum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 293K
[ ] Supplementa ad quaestiones ad Marinum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 172K
[ ] Supplementa ad quaestiones ad Stephanum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 237K
[ ] Supplementa minora ad quaestiones ad Marinum.pdf 10-Nov-2008 02:18 102K
[ ] Vita Constantini.pdf

mountainman

Pretty well the lot. Eusebius very carefully.



Public domain English translations.




I have read many modern studies very briefly for one and one only express purpose and that was to determine on what basis these so-called patristic writers and their manuscripts were dated. Do you understand the point that I have reiterated a few times already. The dating in many cases is left to our "reliable guide" Eusebius without who's thesis in ancient history we would have little or no information about all these so-called patristic writers.


I have drawn a parallel between the 9th century Isidore and Eusebius. The role of both was to serve as extremely clever editors of a great deal of manuscript forgeries served up to them by a large staff of professional scribes. Isidore worked with Latin, Eusebius in Greek.



Your guess is off the radar.




Have you seen the index of my research materials from the 4th century at my website? I have certainly tried to read all the sources. Again English translations. I probably know more about the 4th century that most Biblical Scholars or Biblical Historians. My research leads me outside of these fields into pagan literature and archaeology and inscriptions and coins and .... and ...



I question its existence. I do not question the existence of Marcus Aurelius.

"It is man's duty to follow his daimon, which reflects the cosmic will. This requires us to love humanity in general and to act altruistically"

- Marcus Aurelius

I can cite the fact that many scholars and translators gauge the Christian reference in Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, 11:3 as a later Christian interpolation.


The entire Quran and its historical underpinnings do not appear until centuries after the supposed date of when the book was first narrated by the Angel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad.

I am questioning the same principles about Christianity.

I think it is appropriate to investigate and discuss the evidence for and against the argument that Pseudo-Eusebius and Pseudo-Isidore are both very clever forgers at the head of a team of professionals.






εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller

Let's take this one by one:

Really? I doubt that. I asked which texts have you read from beginning to end.

1. Irenaeus - which of the five books of Adv Haer have you read beginning to end?
2. Irenaeus - have you read Proof of the Apostolic Preaching from beginning to end?
3. Tertullian - which of his texts have you read beginning to end?

stephan huller

1. Which of his texts have you actually read?
2. How did you read his untranslated texts?

mountainman

See the blue highlighted entries below.

Not too many but I have read plenty of assessments of Eusebius.


I have read most of them available on the net as English translations.



I have not read these greek texts.

Public domain English translations mainly via ccel.

Perhaps I have browsed or scanned others lists here.




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

Don't you understand the meaning of "public domain English translations"?




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

Whatever is available on the net in English translation.

No. I don't remember that at all.


Whatever Roger Pearce has on his website.


Are you quite finished?




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia