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Old 09-10-2013, 04:35 AM   #1
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Default Moved from GWH :Constantine and the Trinity

I'm reading a great book on the rise of Christianity and its impact on creating the Dark Ages. It is interesting to see how Constantine just up and decided to make Christianity the normal state religion.

Certainly he didn't have a dream at the Milvian Bridge one evening and poof the empire was christian! No his father had been a co-emporer during the Diocletian persecutions but had refused to really enforce the decrees. Constantine probably just saw no point in ignoring Christianity and realized that it was not going away, so he might as well use it for his benefit. But he really didn't know anything about it, and never really bothered to learn. He thought he might by Christ's favors in battle if he paid homage to it, but he also paid homage to Pagan deities. According to this book, Constantine probably just didn't realize that Christianity required all or nothing belief. You couldn't believe in other gods. But note that his famous arch still in Rome contains no Christain imagery. But once in, Constantine couldn't go back. So he decided to make it the official state religion, but appease traditional pagans. A lot of his art work and statements are ambiguous. Then to his horror he found out that there was no real Christian core set of beliefs. The Christians were constantly arguing over the whole meaning of Christ and what books were authoritative.

So he demanded conformity, and thus the Council of Nicea. At the council, which he helped to preside over, he is the one who claimed that Jesus and God were one and the same. This author goes on to argue that Constantine's original ignorance of Christianity came back to bite him. He suddenly didn't like the idea that God was a rebel against Rome who suffered the ultmate Roman penalty. So the way to avoid that embarassment was simply to make Jesus of one being with the father. A concept which many noted at the time had no basis in scripture - especially the Synoptics. Jesus praying at Gesthamane, his pathetic cry on the cross, and even Paul's Epistles suggest Jesus as at least a lesser deity if not completely human. Greeks were used to their children of gods as lesser gods. But hey, that's what the emperor wanted, that's what he gets. So the whole trinity is effctively born. not really though. Very few Christians at the time bought into it. It took quite a few years for this to become the truly orthodox view. The actual fully explained trinity came about later by a Greek bishop who had been steeped in classical neo platonic philosophy. And again he got the backing of the latest emperor to have this view declared orthodox and all others heresy.

It's amazing that so many Christians don't bother to learn their own history.

SLD
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:10 PM   #2
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I was amazed when I discovered that Constantine didn't allow himself to be baptized until he was on his death bed. If I remember correctly, the baptizer was a heretic, so maybe the baptism didn't take.
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:58 PM   #3
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Actually a lot of Christians at this time waited to be baptized on their death bed. This was not uncommon, but became more so as the 4th century took hold.

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Old 09-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #4
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What is the book?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:21 PM   #5
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The Closing of the Western Mind - The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason, by Charles Freeman (or via: amazon.co.uk)
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:32 AM   #6
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Fascinating review on Amazon

Quote:
Ever since I read Nietzsche's The Antichrist as a philosophy student I have been fascinated by the subject of early Christianity and how/why it was able to dominate the formally Pagan Roman world so completely, and even potentially have been a contributory factor in its decline. Nietzsche's book is a blisteringly intelligent and inspiring diatribe against the way Christianity was essentially a way for the weak and oppressed to tune in, turn on and drop out of a World in which they were unable to stand up to a stronger and more noble type of human, and yet which eventually succeeded in bringing down this world through the total spread of this nihilistic disease and the subtle pollution of the political elite.

And so fired by this passion I have ever since been looking for similar books covering the subject, with very little success. Nietzsche's thoughts are presented without detail of the historical context or very many actual quotes of philological evidence, and so I was looking for something to provide the 'meat on the bones'. This book has been exactly that - it is an excellent and thorough history of the early Christian Church, presented in a way which brings forth some fascinating quotes and references which provide unequivocal support to Nietzsche's thoughts, especially those of the influence of Paul.

However, the reason I have provided only 4 out of 5 is that I believe the author holds back too much. The book is both impartial and sensitive to the canon of Christian theology against which it naturally runs, however in doing so it often fails to provide any real theory or comment on reasons and effects. Because of this it occasionally descends into fairly standard historical analysis, and seems to forget its central theme i.e. the suppression of the rational thought. In addition, this theme is actually a rather singular focus if one has read The Antichrist. What about social dynamics and politics?

In short, I would highly recommend this book, but I also advise reading The Antichrist afterwards, which is altogether a more emotive and passionate account.

N.B - the author makes no mention of Nietzsche and so the connection of these two books is mine alone, however read them both and you will see the link.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Fascinating review on Amazon

Quote:
Ever since I read Nietzsche's The Antichrist as a philosophy student I have been fascinated by the subject of early Christianity and how/why it was able to dominate the formally Pagan Roman world so completely, and even potentially have been a contributory factor in its decline. Nietzsche's book is a blisteringly intelligent and inspiring diatribe against the way Christianity was essentially a way for the weak and oppressed to tune in, turn on and drop out of a World in which they were unable to stand up to a stronger and more noble type of human, and yet which eventually succeeded in bringing down this world through the total spread of this nihilistic disease and the subtle pollution of the political elite.

And so fired by this passion I have ever since been looking for similar books covering the subject, with very little success. Nietzsche's thoughts are presented without detail of the historical context or very many actual quotes of philological evidence, and so I was looking for something to provide the 'meat on the bones'. This book has been exactly that - it is an excellent and thorough history of the early Christian Church, presented in a way which brings forth some fascinating quotes and references which provide unequivocal support to Nietzsche's thoughts, especially those of the influence of Paul.

However, the reason I have provided only 4 out of 5 is that I believe the author holds back too much. The book is both impartial and sensitive to the canon of Christian theology against which it naturally runs, however in doing so it often fails to provide any real theory or comment on reasons and effects. Because of this it occasionally descends into fairly standard historical analysis, and seems to forget its central theme i.e. the suppression of the rational thought. In addition, this theme is actually a rather singular focus if one has read The Antichrist. What about social dynamics and politics?

In short, I would highly recommend this book, but I also advise reading The Antichrist afterwards, which is altogether a more emotive and passionate account.

N.B - the author makes no mention of Nietzsche and so the connection of these two books is mine alone, however read them both and you will see the link.
I agree Nietzsche is a rollicking good ride of a diatribe.

Better than Freeman's book, IMO.

Freeman sounds to me like a closet apologist. It's been a while, so the details are hazy, but my recollection is that he presents Xtianity as an improvement or progression from paganism. It's the evil Constantine and his crew that are to blame, not Jesus. (Fwiw I think the collapse of Rome had more to do with the closing mind than Constantine or Theodosius)
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:41 PM   #8
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Topic better suited for HAR.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLD View Post
Actually a lot of Christians at this time waited to be baptized on their death bed. This was not uncommon, but became more so as the 4th century took hold.

SLD
Please name the Christians who were baptized on their death beds.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:26 PM   #10
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Freeman's main thesis for this book is summarised as follows:

Quote:

CLOSING PARAGRAPH


"I would reiterate the central theme of this book:
that the Greek intellectual tradition was suppressed
and did not simply fade away.

The idea is that the Christian state suppressed the Greek intellectual tradition (i.e. the pagans), scupl

NOTE: These traditions may be represented in the following form: mathematics, geometry, astronomy, physics, science, medicine, philosophy, literature, art, etc, etc, etc. These traditions were rubbed out for over a thousand years by the Christian state.



However Freeman has written a smaller more recent book:

AD 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Christian State (or via: amazon.co.uk)

It presents a more cohesive thesis because it is focussed on the political events surrounding the year 381 CE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Description


'We authorise followers of this law to assume the title of orthodox Christians;
but as for the others since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen,
we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious names of heretics.'


- Emperor Theodosius.
In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of the Godhead; all other interpretations were now declared heretical.

Moreover, for the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Not since the attempt of the pharaoh Akhenaten to impose his god Aten on his Egyptian subjects in the fourteenth century BC had there been such a widesweeping programme of religious coercion.Yet surprisingly this political revolution, intended to bring inner cohesion to an empire under threat from the outside, has been airbrushed from the historical record. Instead, it has been claimed that the Christian Church had reached a consensus on the Trinity which was promulgated at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381.

I have a few extracts and quotes from these two books here

Freeman's entire thesis is summarised in his concluding chapter of 381 CE as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUMMARY of Charles Freeman's thesis

p.204

Concluding statement ....

"What is certain is that, in the west,
the historical reality, that the Nicene Trinity
was imposed from above on the church,
by an emperor, disappeared from the record.

A harmonised version of what happened at the Council of Constantinople,
highlighting a consensus for which there is little historical evidence,
concealed the enforcement of the Nicene Trinity through the medium of
imperial legislation.


The aim of this book has been to reveal what has been concealed.

Arguably the year AD 381 deserves to be seen as one of the most
important moments in the history of European thought."
So the 4th century is looking like the century in which the Christian Dictators Emperors made the decisions and called the shots.

Much later, the ecclesiastical clerics invented the documentary evidence to make posterity think that 381 CE was a "harmonius" consultative process.

AFAIK Freeman deals with 381 (Theodosius) and not 325 CE (Bullneck).
The OP and Freeman are thus slightly uncalibrated, but the principle remains,

Hence the necessity of investigation the means, motive and opportunity for a pious forgery mill ["Pseudo-Eusebian History"]. The primer for this line of investigation is understanding the modus operandi of the already exposed and massive 9th century forgery mill [Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Pascal as quoted by Freeman in AD 381

p.196

CONCLUSION
"We must not see the fact of usurpation;
law was once introduced without reason,
and has become reasonable. We must make
it regarded as authoritative, eternal, and
conceal its origin, if we do not wish that
it should soon come to an end."


~ Blaise Pascal, Pensees
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