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Old 05-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #21
James Brown
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But it's wasteful magic.

In my evangelical church growing up, we often heard the expression, "God is never in a hurry but he's always on time." This was meant to comfort us whenever we thought that God wasn't fixing our problems quickly enough. The implication of the expression was that God could give the Japanese JIT (Just-In-Time) inventory lessons, that he never wasted effort, that he never used a sledgehammer to crack open a soft-boiled egg.

So if Jehovah could use magic to eliminate 22 billion pounds of human feces, then he could use magic to transport the Israelites from Egypt to Palestine instantly, Portal-style.

That he chooses to work miracles the hard way is very puzzling.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
But it's wasteful magic.

In my evangelical church growing up, we often heard the expression, "God is never in a hurry but he's always on time." This was meant to comfort us whenever we thought that God wasn't fixing our problems quickly enough. The implication of the expression was that God could give the Japanese JIT (Just-In-Time) inventory lessons, that he never wasted effort, that he never used a sledgehammer to crack open a soft-boiled egg.

So if Jehovah could use magic to eliminate 22 billion pounds of human feces, then he could use magic to transport the Israelites from Egypt to Palestine instantly, Portal-style.

That he chooses to work miracles the hard way is very puzzling.
It tends to be chalked up (in conversations I have had) to an aversion on god's part to leaving obvious evidence, because that undermines the "leap of faith" that is required to be a faithful follower.

Subtle fingerprints that may or may not be evidence, depending on
interpretation - that is A-OK.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:14 PM   #23
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[FUNDY] So? God can do anything, all that all of this proves is what mighty miracles Jehovah did.[/FUNDY]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dockeen
So if Jehovah could use magic to eliminate 22 billion pounds of human feces, then he could use magic to transport the Israelites from Egypt to Palestine instantly, Portal-style.

That he chooses to work miracles the hard way is very puzzling.
[FUNDY] If he did these things the the easy way, instantly, no one would have had much of anything interesting to report, and you would have almost nothing to puzzle over. He's got to make it hard to make it memorable, and to get you to endlesly puzzle over it.[/FUNDY]
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:34 AM   #24
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Yea, the logistics are problematic. In a similar vein I've always wondered how Noah and his small crew kept up with shoveling all the manure.

Even 1000 people for 40 years is problematic. Improbable there would not have been any record of contact somewhere.

A wandering band of outcasts led by an eccentric charismatic leader who thought he talked with god.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:44 AM   #25
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[Fundy] Didn't need to shovel it. God made it all dissapear. If it was God's will that the Children of Israel leave no sign of their passage or presence in the desert, He would allow no evidences to remain.

God wants you to believe HIS WORDS by FAITH in His words ...in spite of any physical evidence to the contrary.
Believe and trust His WORDS and not your own eyes.

If it is material evidences you require, it is not FAITH in His words that you are walking by.
He removed all these evidences so that FAITH might prevail;

"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

[/FUNDY reasoning]

I know. I've been there.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
Yea, the logistics are problematic. In a similar vein I've always wondered how Noah and his small crew kept up with shoveling all the manure.

Even 1000 people for 40 years is problematic. Improbable there would not have been any record of contact somewhere.

A wandering band of outcasts led by an eccentric charismatic leader who thought he talked with god.
The writers never meant this literally, they weren't stupid. The amazing thing is that a literal understanding has so much acceptance today (and I guess for the last 2000 or so years).

The 600,000 men of fighting age are theologically important in Judaism and that's how the 3 million are derived.

Some scholars claim that the Hebrew word for thousand (elef) is mistranslated and means something else in these contexts.

Take this page by some guy that thinks he understands all this.

Organization of the Twelve Tribes of Israel

Quote:
The basic unit within the tribe was the Clan. The Hebrew word for clan is "Elef", and translates as "clan", or "group". This word has created much controversy surrounding the number of Israelites in the Exodus. A clear indication of its usage in Scripture can be gleamed from Numbers 1:16.

"These were the ones chosen from the congregation, the leaders of their ancestral tribes, the heads of the clans (elfei) of Israel."

This passage suggests the translation of "Elef" does not indicate "thousand", as it is translated in Exodus 12:37.

"The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand (elef) men on foot, besides women and children."
One of the issues with this is that the half shekel tax proves they were counting actual people, for example -

Quote:
Exodus 30:13 This is what everyone who is entered in the records shall pay: a half-shekel by the sanctuary weight -- twenty gerahs to the shekel -- a half-shekel as an offering to the LORD.
(Exo 30:13 TNK)
So maybe it is possible that the real old parts of the Torah were talking about some lower numbers but then there are other places where they are actually talking about elef meaning thousand. This seems to turn the whole theory to shit in my opinion.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:17 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
[Fundy] Didn't need to shovel it. God made it all dissapear. If it was God's will that the Children of Israel leave no sign of their passage or presence in the desert, He would allow no evidences to remain.

God wants you to believe HIS WORDS by FAITH in His words ...in spite of any physical evidence to the contrary.
Believe and trust His WORDS and not your own eyes.

If it is material evidences you require, it is not FAITH in His words that you are walking by.
He removed all these evidences so that FAITH might prevail;

"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

[/FUNDY reasoning]

I know. I've been there.
I suggest you start a separate thread on fundie jokes...
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by semiopen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
Yea, the logistics are problematic. In a similar vein I've always wondered how Noah and his small crew kept up with shoveling all the manure.

Even 1000 people for 40 years is problematic. Improbable there would not have been any record of contact somewhere.

A wandering band of outcasts led by an eccentric charismatic leader who thought he talked with god.
The writers never meant this literally, they weren't stupid. The amazing thing is that a literal understanding has so much acceptance today (and I guess for the last 2000 or so years).

The 600,000 men of fighting age are theologically important in Judaism and that's how the 3 million are derived.

Some scholars claim that the Hebrew word for thousand (elef) is mistranslated and means something else in these contexts.

Take this page by some guy that thinks he understands all this.

Organization of the Twelve Tribes of Israel



One of the issues with this is that the half shekel tax proves they were counting actual people, for example -

Quote:
Exodus 30:13 This is what everyone who is entered in the records shall pay: a half-shekel by the sanctuary weight -- twenty gerahs to the shekel -- a half-shekel as an offering to the LORD.
(Exo 30:13 TNK)
So maybe it is possible that the real old parts of the Torah were talking about some lower numbers but then there are other places where they are actually talking about elef meaning thousand. This seems to turn the whole theory to shit in my opinion.
The writers may have intended allegory. They also may have been building a history and mythology. By the first century CE it would seem the Jews considered the Torah literal. In the gospels Jesus refers to Moses as a literal figure.

Job I have read was intended as allegory for Jews being oppressed without cause. A story in the times Jews would have understood. According to my Oxford Bible commentary, Job was one story/book in a lost larger set of teaching materials.

Someone posted in the past that 40 in the ancient Jewish vernacular meant 'a while'. It rained 40 days and nights. Jesus went walkabout 40 days in the desert.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
Yea, the logistics are problematic. In a similar vein I've always wondered how Noah and his small crew kept up with shoveling all the manure.

Even 1000 people for 40 years is problematic. Improbable there would not have been any record of contact somewhere.

A wandering band of outcasts led by an eccentric charismatic leader who thought he talked with god.
They did not wander for 40 years, they camped out at Kadesh Barnea for decades.

Deuteronomy 2:14 - And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, [was] thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.


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Old 05-16-2013, 06:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by steve_bnk View Post
Someone posted in the past that 40 in the ancient Jewish vernacular meant 'a while'. It rained 40 days and nights. Jesus went walkabout 40 days in the desert.

That would be correct.
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