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Old 10-04-2013, 08:28 AM   #21
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However, given that Irenaeus "sat at the feet of Polycarp" and so gosh darn lurved the four-fold canon, I find it hard to believe that Irenaeus wouldn't try to bring Polycarp to bear on the question if there really was anything at all to say.
Irenaeus most likely did not or could not have "sat at the feet of Polycarp" when Irenaeus publicly argued for years that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years of age after being about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius or about c 49 CE.

We can deduce that the Epistle to the Philippians of Polycarp was written AFTER Marcion or is an anti-Marcionite Epistle.

Polycarp's Epistle to Philippians
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“For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist;” and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil; and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:42 AM   #22
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Marcion wasn't reacting. He was the first. The Catholic Church was reacting to Marcion and the greater tradition of Mark that he embodied. Marcion = 'lesser Mark' so Hilgenfeld
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:45 AM   #23
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Oh? Please do tell. At least we could learn from what Trobisch gets terribly wrong.
Price seems to have sunk so far that he has quoted someone called Stephan Herman Huller. What is the world coming to?? Jackasses indeed.
He mentions you now and again in his podcast, and always in a favorable
light, even when he doesn't seem to agree with you. That is cool!
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:31 AM   #24
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Marcion wasn't reacting. He was the first.
This is the old Harnack idea, isn't it. But is there any actual evidence of this? It is unfortunate that the data attached to Harnack's book was not translated in the English version.

We also need to bear in mind that promoting and emphasising the priority of the only heresy which rejected Judaism (so Harnack thought) in a period of rising anti-semitism and in a country with a state church may have some evil motives behind it. This was the culture that produced arguments that Jesus was racially an Aryan, not a Jew (and, before we laugh, made some kind of case for it). So we do need solid data; and I rather doubt it exists.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:33 AM   #25
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FWIW Peregrinus is said by Lucian to keep changing his name too. They were martyrs roughly at the same time, by fire ....
Erm ... Peregrinus Proteus committed suicide. He was a stoic, but he wasn't a martyr. To be martyred there needs to be compulsion.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:14 PM   #26
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I think the parallels between the two texts go back to one and the same historical account which agrees with neither account perfectly. If you'd like me to provide a list of parallels I can (there is also an article I published at Hermann Detering's site which I wrote while anxiously waiting for the birth of my son). But basically the similarities come down

1. Herod = Herodes Atticus in either narrative
2. the Christian martyr dies by fire
3. the fact that most of Irenaeus's references to Polycarp are anonymous ('presbyter') especially in material where he combats Florinus (Book 4)
4. the bird that comes out of the flames of the martyr's death
5. the association of both men with Ignatius's letters (see Lightfoot)
6. the reference to 'games' in either death
7. they operate in Asia Minor
8. they die in the same age (I think the death of Polycarp and Peregrinus are attributed with in a few years of one another)

There's more but I wrote this up on the fly
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:16 PM   #27
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He mentions you now and again in his podcast, and always in a favorable
light, even when he doesn't seem to agree with you.
No its not. He should find better caliber friends
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #28
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Marcion wasn't reacting. He was the first.
This is the old Harnack idea, isn't it. But is there any actual evidence of this? It is unfortunate that the data attached to Harnack's book was not translated in the English version.

We also need to bear in mind that promoting and emphasising the priority of the only heresy which rejected Judaism (so Harnack thought) in a period of rising anti-semitism and in a country with a state church may have some evil motives behind it. This was the culture that produced arguments that Jesus was racially an Aryan, not a Jew (and, before we laugh, made some kind of case for it). So we do need solid data; and I rather doubt it exists.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Jesus was a Jew?? Please don't make me laugh. Even when Christians and historicists take the New Testament literally there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was a Jew.

The conception of Jesus is documented in the New Testament

There is solid data for the birth of Jesus in the Bible.

If the New Testament is not solid data for the conception of Jesus then there is no other data.

Matthew 1:18 CEB
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This is how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. When Mary his mother was engaged to Joseph, before they were married, she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit.
There is no genealogy for Mary in the New Testament and it is virtually impossible that the Ghost which impregnated Mary was a Jew.

It is clear that the New Testament is a compilation of Mythology NOT Literal history as Christians and historicists presume.

The earliest version of the New Testament that has been found do show that it is indeed mythology.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #29
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But Roger you have to come to terms with the diversity within Judaism. And you of all people should be aware of the number of times Tertullian accuses Marcion of being Jewish or taking arguments from the Jews.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #30
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I wonder how scholars such as Trobisch & Price can be sure of what vague characters like Polycarp did [or - add - allegedly wrote], given the vague information we have about them and him; and given likely later rewriting, translation-mistakes, and even concerted editing.
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