Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grog · 07-06-2013, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

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mainstream

I am not talking mainstream! I am looking at this anthropologically, what modern cults say! And I am not discussing Jewish readers of the scriptures, but Greek thinking Christian ones. More and more I cannot see much understanding of Judaism in Xianity, it has stolen the stones and rebuilt them very differently with Greek stones.

Interestingly, I think ideas do survive very very long times in very similar ways, and what you find is modern people copying and repeating old ideas. A classic example is Islamic veils and modesty, that goes directly back to Greek medical thinking that hair stores semen.

http://www.sbl-site.org/publications...?articleId=271

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The apostle Paul wanted women to cover their tresses while praying because he — like the rest of Hellenistic culture then — believed that the long hair of adult females was the sexual equivalent of male testicles, according to a newly published study.

Similar things are found all over the place - looking for the Christ in stories about Angels is an obvious one - there might even have been deliberate editing to create this.

To add, I think that ideas such as this, from the Apocalypse of Adam, could be the primordial soup out of which "Jesus Christ" emerged:

Quote:

These are the revelations which Adam made known to Seth, his son, And his son taught his seed about them. This is the hidden knowledge of Adam, which he gave to Seth, which is the holy baptism of those who know the eternal knowledge through those born of the word and the imperishable illuminators, who came from the holy seed: Yesseus, Mazareus, Yessedekeus, the Living Water.

Jesus Christ could have emerged first as one of the "imperishable illuminators, who came from the holy seed."

stephan huller · 07-06-2013, 11:12 PM

Tertullian Also Seems to Have Known the Specific Aramaic Name אישו for the Christian God

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...ave-known.html

Davka · 07-07-2013, 11:11 AM

Stephen - were you aware that the Jewish diminutive of ישוע is ישו ? And that Rabbinic writers have traditionally left of the final ayin as a sign of disrespect for the Messianic claims of Christians?

I don't know if this is at all related to the Aramaic אישו, but as soon as I saw your blog entry this popped into my head. iirc, this dropping of the final ayin goes back as far as the Birkat HaMinim, under Gamaliel.

stephan huller · 07-07-2013, 10:23 PM

I don't think it is a diminutive. I've heard this before, but I am not convinced. ישוע is already a short form of the original name Joshua. I don't understand this:

Quote:

this dropping of the final ayin goes back as far as the Birkat HaMinim, under Gamaliel.

It's been years since I looked at this but from what I remember the closest there is to having the name 'Jesus' here is in the line 'who causes his authority to flourish through salvation.' [matzmiah qeren yeshuah] But this is not the name. It's a feminine noun - יְשׁוּעָה.

stephan huller · 07-07-2013, 10:25 PM

I have found more evidence of the interest in likening the Christian god to the אֲנָשִׁ֔ים in the anti-Marcionite De Recta in Deum Fide:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-it-pours.html

ph2ter · 07-08-2013, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I think I am going to change the focus of the essay to the idea that the original nomen sacrum ΙΣ was rooted or shaped in Genesis 32. No one gives a ---- about the Marcionites. They will be a prominent part of the argument. But the popular (but incorrect) etymology Ἰσραὴλ = 'ish ra'ah [or ro'eh] 'El, "a man seeing God" drawing upon the shared phoneme Ἰσ = אִישׁ will be at the heart of the paper.

The narrative of Genesis 32 has its parallel in a strange story inserted in Exodus 4. The common elements are: Jacob/Mosses took his wives and sons going back to Canaan/Egypt. Somewhere on the way 'a man'/'the Lord' fights with Jacob/Mosses. The fight ended after genitalia was circumcised/wrenched/touched. After that Jacob/Mosses meets his brother Esau/Aaron and kisses him.

Comparing the two stories it appears that 'ish' is identical with Yahweh/Elohim.

Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3 'hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God', but Jacob said “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” and also to his brother Esau: „For to see your face is like seeing the face of God“.

stephan huller · 07-08-2013, 08:34 AM

Philo has an uncanny way of marching in lockstep with the Samaritan interpretation of איש as a divine being even in Genesis 37:15 - 17

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...edium=facebook

Davka · 07-08-2013, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't think it is a diminutive. I've heard this before, but I am not convinced. ישוע is already a short form of the original name Joshua. I don't understand this:

Quote:

this dropping of the final ayin goes back as far as the Birkat HaMinim, under Gamaliel.

It's been years since I looked at this but from what I remember the closest there is to having the name 'Jesus' here is in the line 'who causes his authority to flourish through salvation.' [matzmiah qeren yeshuah] But this is not the name. It's a feminine noun - יְשׁוּעָה.

My mistake - I dug out some old books where I thought I remembered this from, turns out it was a much later Talmudic commentary on the Birkat HaMinim.

Carry on!

stephan huller · 07-08-2013, 08:38 PM

I think James McGrath has been reading my blog. I posted comments at Larry Hurtado's blog and I think he followed the comments back to my writing. This sounds too much like what I have been working on for the last few weeks.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/explori....html#comments

Clivedurdle · 07-09-2013, 04:52 AM

http://www.paperrater.com

This does a free plagiarism check!

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07-06-2013, 11:12 PM	#82
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Tertullian Also Seems to Have Known the Specific Aramaic Name אישו for the Christian God http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...ave-known.html

07-07-2013, 11:11 AM	#83
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Stephen - were you aware that the Jewish diminutive of ישוע is ישו ? And that Rabbinic writers have traditionally left of the final ayin as a sign of disrespect for the Messianic claims of Christians? I don't know if this is at all related to the Aramaic אישו, but as soon as I saw your blog entry this popped into my head. iirc, this dropping of the final ayin goes back as far as the Birkat HaMinim, under Gamaliel.

07-07-2013, 10:25 PM	#85
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have found more evidence of the interest in likening the Christian god to the אֲנָשִׁ֔ים in the anti-Marcionite De Recta in Deum Fide: http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-it-pours.html

07-08-2013, 08:34 AM	#87
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Philo has an uncanny way of marching in lockstep with the Samaritan interpretation of איש as a divine being even in Genesis 37:15 - 17 http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...edium=facebook

07-08-2013, 08:38 PM	#89
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I think James McGrath has been reading my blog. I posted comments at Larry Hurtado's blog and I think he followed the comments back to my writing. This sounds too much like what I have been working on for the last few weeks. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/explori....html#comments

07-09-2013, 04:52 AM	#90
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.paperrater.com This does a free plagiarism check!

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