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Old 07-03-2013, 06:36 PM   #11
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I have read the book and some of the sources he uses, which is why I started this thread.......

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I recommend Robert Spencer's "Did Mohammed Exist."

It will answer many questions, although not the way the imams want them answered.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:21 PM   #12
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I'm interested in the topic, but need to do a lot more reading before I am caught up on the matter. It does seem, however, that the official version of Islam's origins does not hold water.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:11 AM   #13
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It seems New English Review that has many articles by Ibn Warraq is still down following a Denial of Service attack

I recommend Tom Holland Shadow of the Sword.

This link has a good summary of issues

http://iheu.org/content/conference-e...slam-and-koran

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In March 2008, the newly-founded Inarah Institute for Research on Early Islamic History held a three-day international conference in Otzenhausen, Germany, on the early history of Islam and the Koran. The institute was founded by a group of German scholars inspired by the earth-shaking work of Christoph Luxenberg but concerned at the conspiracy of silence surrounding his work among traditional Islamologists; a silence hardly surprising given the implications of his insights for the traditional history of the Koran, now thought to be almost certainly false and fabricated many years after the foundation of Islam....
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:51 PM   #14
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I have read the book and some of the sources he uses, which is why I started this thread.......

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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
I recommend Robert Spencer's "Did Mohammed Exist."

It will answer many questions, although not the way the imams want them answered.
Well then, while I found his discussion of the various artifacts interesting the Syriac derivation and the use of diacritical marks was even more fascinating.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:02 PM   #15
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One of the most important issues I guess is the status of Mecca. If Mecca was not mentioned as a major trading center on the trading routes in the 6th or 7th century, then how did it eventually get that status? Kind of reminds me of the controversy surrounding the town of Nazareth in the gospels.

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I have read the book and some of the sources he uses, which is why I started this thread.......
Well then, while I found his discussion of the various artifacts interesting the Syriac derivation and the use of diacritical marks was even more fascinating.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:36 PM   #16
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This is a valid comparison between Mecca and Nazareth IMO. I can remember reading that Mecca was not mentioned until a century or two after the supposed death of Muhammad. I made some notes following an audio discussion about the questionable history of Islam but cannot locate them. I do recall posting this data to the forum some years ago but the archives do not appear to have been recovered.

I regret being unable to answer your list of questions atm, but they are good questions and they require good answers. I certainly see the parallel between the creation of the centralised monotheistic state religion of the Moslems and that of the Christians. The Moslems followed Constantine's lead, and there is good reason to believe that Constantine followed the 3rd century lead of the Persian King of Kings Ardashir.

I can recall (again without being able to reference notes) that the primary reason the centralised monotheistic Islamic state was formed was to consolidate the position of the rulers over a large geographically extended empire. Religion for the rulers was a very useful tool, and the greater the power of the rulers, the greater the use was the (state) religion.

Finally one aspect that strikes me as important is that the so-called peaceful and generous Muhammad, when he obtained absolute and supreme military command of the empire made a specific point of publically executing a number of satirists. Such absolute rulers enforced orthodoxy with the sword and the greatest threat to such orthodoxy appears to have been influential satirists.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
One of the most important issues I guess is the status of Mecca. If Mecca was not mentioned as a major trading center on the trading routes in the 6th or 7th century, then how did it eventually get that status? Kind of reminds me of the controversy surrounding the town of Nazareth in the gospels.

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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
I have read the book and some of the sources he uses, which is why I started this thread.......
Well then, while I found his discussion of the various artifacts interesting the Syriac derivation and the use of diacritical marks was even more fascinating.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:42 PM   #17
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MM, that point about satire makes me wonder whether in fact many of the traditions of the Prophet called hadiths that sound very peculiar were in fact simply satire that came to be taken seriously, i.e. regarding Mohammed's sex life for example.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:46 PM   #18
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I think they very well might be satire on Muhammad's sex life and there are certainly parallels in the so-called "gnostic material" about the sex life of Jesus and the sex life of the apostles. The most explicit of these is to be found in the "Greater Questions of Mary" mentioned by the 4th century heresiologist Epiphanius who recalls the story (being passed around by the heretics) of Jesus and Mary upon a mountain top in which Jesus pulls a woman from out of his ribs (recalling the creation of Eve from Adam) and madly fucks her in the presence of Mary.



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Old 07-04-2013, 04:48 PM   #19
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Thus the question could be asked whether such hadiths were ever intended as real expressions of the life of the prophet who they believed existed, OR were simple humor of his enemies adapted by the Muslims. It's hard to believe these were taken seriously in a spiritual context:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an...lars:Sexuality

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I think they very well might be satire on Muhammad's sex life and there are certainly parallels in the so-called "gnostic material" about the sex life of Jesus and the sex life of the apostles. The most explicit of these is to be found in the "Greater Questions of Mary" mentioned by the 4th century heresiologist Epiphanius who recalls the story (being passed around by the heretics) of Jesus and Mary upon a mountain top in which Jesus pulls a woman from out of his ribs and madly fucks her in the presence of Mary.



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Old 07-04-2013, 04:51 PM   #20
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The problem as I see it is that both Biblical and Islamic scholars and academics are not equipped to be able to perceive such simple basic humour since they have been strongly conditioned to read their respective holy writs as utterly humourless tomes - the very word of the living monotheistic god. Thou shalt not laugh at the holy writ or within the confines of the church or mosque.




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