Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-21-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

As I said to you before, aa, some argue for Aramaic origins of gMark and GMatthew. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_hypothesis Papias explicitly says that Matthew wrote in the Hebrew tongue, so it may well be that at least some early material started out in Aramaic. IF that's the origin then the Greek writers wouldn't necessarily know to change 'brother' or 'sister' to 'cousin': They may simply not have known the relationship.

Josephus was a Jew and knew the difference between brothers, sisters and cousin.

We have the works of a JOSEPHUS, A JEW.

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 17.10

Quote:

In particular, two thousand of Herod's old soldiers, who had been already disbanded, got together in Judea itself, and fought against the king's troops, although Achiabus, Herod's first cousin, opposed them...

gurugeorge · 08-21-2013, 04:28 PM

I think the idea would be that Mary is like the "fag end" (cigarette butt in US speak

) of earlier matrifocal beliefs. The half-finished fag of which would have been Sophia, Isis, Persephone, Attys and other female divine entities going back to the Bronze Age.

Or the various Marys might be just a sop to Gnostics who held to a "phasic" view of the feminine (virgin, whore, mother, crone) - i.e. they are merely allegorical.

Robert Tulip · 08-21-2013, 04:35 PM

Duvduv, the Gospels are fiction. The Mary stories update the myths of Isis and other virgin mother goddesses, transforming the old stories from their original intent of supporting a culture of female equality into a corrupted form suitable for campaigning against the Roman Empire. Robert

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What was so much a matrifocal worship cult about some girl named Miriam who had an illegitimate son named Yeshu? The ancient archives in Rome or Constantinople would presumably have included all that information along with everything else just waiting to be incorporated into the new State religion....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

The origins of the Blessed Virgin Mary are deep in the matrifocal female worship cults that were destroyed and subordinated by the alienated supernatural politics of patriarchal monotheism.

A good introduction by Acharya S is at http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html

Duvduv · 08-21-2013, 04:51 PM

That wasn't the point. I was simply commenting on the fact of Miriam the mother of Yeshu as the basis for the Jesus story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Duvduv, the Gospels are fiction. The Mary stories update the myths of Isis and other virgin mother goddesses, transforming the old stories from their original intent of supporting a culture of female equality into a corrupted form suitable for campaigning against the Roman Empire. Robert

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What was so much a matrifocal worship cult about some girl named Miriam who had an illegitimate son named Yeshu? The ancient archives in Rome or Constantinople would presumably have included all that information along with everything else just waiting to be incorporated into the new State religion....

Tenorikuma · 08-21-2013, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That wasn't the point. I was simply commenting on the fact of Miriam the mother of Yeshu as the basis for the Jesus story.

So between the writing of Mark and the other Synoptics, Christians began to associate the historical/historicized Jesus with an unrelated Jewish tradition about Miriam and Yeshu?

That does make sense.

(And Mary's eventual quasi-divinization would still probably fit with female worship cults, especially once more pagans adopted Christianity.)

Duvduv · 08-21-2013, 06:28 PM

I don't think it's all that hard to imagine that (forgive me) the researchers in the old archives found material for the new emerging religion rooted in Jewish ideas relating to a rejected figure who had great potential. If it weren't for the old imperial libraries and archives the religion would probably never have developed.

JoeWallack · 08-24-2013, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

I'd like to get your thoughts on where and how Mary was introduced into the Jesus story.

Let me start with a rather surprising verse that escaped my attention until recently: John 19:25b.

Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Here as elsewhere, John completely omits the name of Jesus' mother. But even more astonishingly, he says that Jesus' mother had a sister named Mary. Now, I know that Mary was a common name in first-century Palestine, but unless people were in the habit of giving all their own children the same name, we can only conclude that in John's version of the story, Jesus' mother was not named Mary.

Going back to Mark, the earliest extant version of the Jesus story, we find that Jesus' mother is named in only one passage: 6:3. ("Is this not the carpenter…?") If this verse were an interpolation, we would be left with no references to Mary the mother of Jesus in Mark. Furthermore, Mark has another Mary in 15:40 who is not Jesus' mother, and who has children named James, Joses and Salome (just like Jesus' mother in 6:3).

So who invented Mary the mother of Jesus? Was it a natural confusion arising from the myriad of Marys in Mark and other early Gospels? Or was it an invention of Matthew, who based Jesus' nativity on that of Moses and introduced another Miriam to look after the divine child?

And is Mark 6:3 a retrojection of later tradition into the Gospel — an attempt to authenticate later claims about the names of Jesus' brothers and mother? After all, Mark mentions Jesus' family elsewhere with no attempt to give them names.

All The Guys Just Idolized Her

JW:
I'm afraid it's even worse than that. "Mark" sez that Jesus had a brother Joseph and one of the few things that subsequent Christianity agrees about is that Jesus' father was named Joseph. I would also imagine that the annual Tomb Visitation parties with all those Marys was the inspiration for Bruce

Fortunately you have come to the right side for X-Uh-Jesus. See my award winning Thread:

Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Presentation Of Names As Evidence Of Fiction

Note Wallack's criteria for Figurative use of names:

1) Recognition through reading or sound.

2) Demonstrated style of the author.

3) Contextual fit.

4) Thematic fit.

5) Lack of known literal fit.

6) Fictional story.

Quote:

"Mark" has a literary style of replacing major characters with multiple characters with the same name. Presumably the most important natural character to Jesus would have been his father. Since per "Mark" Jesus' replacement father is God, no natural character would have had the same name = Jesus' natural father is not named.

The next most natural character to Jesus would have been his mother. The key which unlocks "Mark", The Parable of the Sower ("Juewee! Juewee! Here Juey Juey. Come here Juey Juey"), explains that the result of discipleship is multiplication:

Mark 4:8

Quote:

And others fell into the good ground, and yielded fruit, growing up and increasing; and brought forth, thirtyfold, and sixtyfold, and a hundredfold.

"Mark" is kind enough to make the major theme of family replacement explicit:

Mark 3

Quote:

3:31 And there come his mother and his brethren; and, standing without, they sent unto him, calling him.

3:32 And a multitude was sitting about him; and they say unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

3:33 And he answereth them, and saith, Who is my mother and my brethren?

3:34 And looking round on them that sat round about him, he saith, Behold, my mother and my brethren!

3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Putting the two together the good seed/disciple will fall/suffer but will give rise to multiple good seeds.

And here we see "Mark" replace the mother Mary who fell from discipleship with two Marys who are still following Jesus:

Mark 16

Quote:

16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.

As far as the specific names of "Mark's" Jesus' brothers, "James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon", the most famous brothers in The Jewish Bible are Joseph, Judah, el-all. I would guess that "Mark's" James and Simon here are following Paul ("James, the brother of the Lord"= take your pick, HJ = real brother, MJ = title, Simon = Paul's Cephas). Joseph and Judah are the two most famous brothers in The Jewish Bible. Similarly "Mary" would be the most famous woman (Miriam) in The Jewish Bible.

"Mark's" names here are meant to be figurative to illustrate that Jesus' supposed religious family (Traditional Judaism) rejected him and were replaced by a different Spiritual family. "Mark" has sown the seeds for Replacement Theology but why not, this is l-o-n-g after Paul and the destruction of The Temple.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

outhouse · 08-24-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

I'd like to get your thoughts on where and how Mary was introduced into the Jesus story.

.

The authors believed he was a Galilean who had died for their sins, and they backfilled his history from what they heard within oral traditions using mythology to explain this aspect..

Montgomery Scott · 08-24-2013, 12:03 PM

Jesus sort of treated his mother like crap.

When he was 12 years old, his family had to go to Jerusalem because of a religious festival or something or other. On the way back, Mary and family notice Jesus isn't among them. Among any parent, this would cause untold grief and worry, and this goes multiple times more for poor Mary and Joe, because this kid is the Son of God (but this could mean that Jesus could take care of himself and lay some whoop ass if someone fucked with him).

They look around frantically for the bugger and find him in the temple amazing the elders. When asked why, Jesus scolded them and told them that he was in his father's house. OK. Jesus wasn't so concerned about Mary's worry. He couldnt go to him mom and say, "hey mom, I am going to the temple. When should I come back for dinner?"

Jesus gives Mary a hard time concerning the wedding at Cana. To all the anti alcohol Christians out there, Jesus made the best wine, and was complimented by the host, who wished that he would have made this wine earlier, since it was the best wine. The best wine was served first, and then the cheaper wine later when the participants were drunk.

Jesus rejected his mother and family when they wanted to see him. Why? Was Mary a bad mother? I don't want to see this woman who raised me, fed and clothed me, and kept me in her house until he was 30 years old? I liked the bit Robin Williams did that some people doubt Jesus was Jewish. Jesus lived at home until he was 30, worked the family business and his mother thought he was God.

Mary seemed to be a long suffering woman who had solice that she was chosen by The Spirit to have a kid who was the Son of God. But it seems that Jesus was rather a juvenile jerk towards her.

Tenorikuma · 08-25-2013, 07:31 AM

Yeah, Luke and John, being later works, seem familiar with some traditions of the juvenile Jesus and his precociousness. The infancy Gospels obviously take it further still. But by then, we are well into the fan fiction stage of Jesus literature, like the back stories you get for Star Wars characters in the various supplemental works and novels.

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08-21-2013, 04:28 PM	#22
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	I think the idea would be that Mary is like the "fag end" (cigarette butt in US speak ) of earlier matrifocal beliefs. The half-finished fag of which would have been Sophia, Isis, Persephone, Attys and other female divine entities going back to the Bronze Age. Or the various Marys might be just a sop to Gnostics who held to a "phasic" view of the feminine (virgin, whore, mother, crone) - i.e. they are merely allegorical.

08-21-2013, 06:28 PM	#26
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I don't think it's all that hard to imagine that (forgive me) the researchers in the old archives found material for the new emerging religion rooted in Jewish ideas relating to a rejected figure who had great potential. If it weren't for the old imperial libraries and archives the religion would probably never have developed.

08-24-2013, 12:03 PM	#29
Montgomery Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Earth Posts: 2,770	Jesus sort of treated his mother like crap. When he was 12 years old, his family had to go to Jerusalem because of a religious festival or something or other. On the way back, Mary and family notice Jesus isn't among them. Among any parent, this would cause untold grief and worry, and this goes multiple times more for poor Mary and Joe, because this kid is the Son of God (but this could mean that Jesus could take care of himself and lay some whoop ass if someone fucked with him). They look around frantically for the bugger and find him in the temple amazing the elders. When asked why, Jesus scolded them and told them that he was in his father's house. OK. Jesus wasn't so concerned about Mary's worry. He couldnt go to him mom and say, "hey mom, I am going to the temple. When should I come back for dinner?" Jesus gives Mary a hard time concerning the wedding at Cana. To all the anti alcohol Christians out there, Jesus made the best wine, and was complimented by the host, who wished that he would have made this wine earlier, since it was the best wine. The best wine was served first, and then the cheaper wine later when the participants were drunk. Jesus rejected his mother and family when they wanted to see him. Why? Was Mary a bad mother? I don't want to see this woman who raised me, fed and clothed me, and kept me in her house until he was 30 years old? I liked the bit Robin Williams did that some people doubt Jesus was Jewish. Jesus lived at home until he was 30, worked the family business and his mother thought he was God. Mary seemed to be a long suffering woman who had solice that she was chosen by The Spirit to have a kid who was the Son of God. But it seems that Jesus was rather a juvenile jerk towards her.

08-25-2013, 07:31 AM	#30
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	Yeah, Luke and John, being later works, seem familiar with some traditions of the juvenile Jesus and his precociousness. The infancy Gospels obviously take it further still. But by then, we are well into the fan fiction stage of Jesus literature, like the back stories you get for Star Wars characters in the various supplemental works and novels.

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