Freethought & Rationalism Archive

steve_bnk · 06-29-2013, 07:28 PM

I thought ritual washing was a Jewish tradition.

To me a baptism in water is obviously symbolic a spiritual cleansing or change. it is ot the act, it is what the ritual represents.

Toto · 06-29-2013, 07:50 PM

The issue is - did Jesus need to be cleansed or purified? In Mark, the baptism is used as a device to show the Holy Spirit descending onto or into Jesus (depending on the translation.) Other presumably later gospel writers who thought that Jesus was perfect from birth (if not before) realized the logical problem with such a baptism.

steve_bnk · 06-29-2013, 08:22 PM

I read somewhere that in the past that in ancient tines it was not uncommon to spread a local prophesy and then fulfill it.

In the Jewish tradition there was the prophesy of a messiah or at least an interpretation of such.

John prophesied someone would come, someone does come, and John baptizes him prophet to prophet giving JC authority of the scriptures.

Looking at the gospels as an action adventure story of the period which I do, it made sense to the overall plot. JC is both divine and human submitting to human baptism.

There are probably a number of possible spins from supernatural to worldly.

Looking at it from the Jewish and Roman regional politics o the times, John would have had a following as did JC. Baptism by John may have been public showing of unity.

Basic human group politics has not changed much.

I do not think need is the right question, it is how the baptism of JC fits into the overall story and times. John apparently was already baptizing people.

Tommy · 06-29-2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallhall

What purpose would be given to explain baptism of Jesus?

Not sure why or how the question suddenly struck my ignorant mind. But now I simply struggle to let it go.
Was the divine born in sin? could he be reborn, if not cleansed from his former presence? Does something about the situation even make sense?

Without going to far out on a limb, I am reminded of the painting The Virgin by Da Vinci. If considering linguistics and theory of reference and name, one could almost speculate in the two being aspects of the same. Both being function with reference to each other names.

I struggle with how baptism in literal terms could in any way make sense, without doing so purely on faith. So hopefully someone can add the obvious I fail to see.

Perhaps the answer is obvious - Jesus was iniitially in the shadow of John the Baptist, gMark gives the earlier figure some prominence. It has been argued that following John's execution Antipas was bound from another persecution for fear of revolt thus giving time for Jesus to note that if He made similar promises of direct divine intervention He might not be believed...

mountainman · 06-29-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Example

Metaphorical for washing away ones sin, allegory.

Dunking in water goes back a long ways. Look at the mikvahs.

Key phrase, "ritual purification"

Think .... Ganges River.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874 · 06-29-2013, 10:23 PM

Baptism was a ritual of or symbolizes PURIFICATION based on Justin Martyr.

Justin's Dialogue withTrypho XIV

Quote:

"By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God's people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone?

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho LXXXVI

Quote:

..... our Christ, by being crucified on the tree, and by purifying with water, has redeemed us, though plunged in the direst offences which we have committed, and has made a house of prayer and adoration.

ApostateAbe · 06-29-2013, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallhall

What purpose would be given to explain baptism of Jesus?

Not sure why or how the question suddenly struck my ignorant mind. But now I simply struggle to let it go.
Was the divine born in sin? could he be reborn, if not cleansed from his former presence? Does something about the situation even make sense?

Without going to far out on a limb, I am reminded of the painting The Virgin by Da Vinci. If considering linguistics and theory of reference and name, one could almost speculate in the two being aspects of the same. Both being function with reference to each other names.

I struggle with how baptism in literal terms could in any way make sense, without doing so purely on faith. So hopefully someone can add the obvious I fail to see.

I will answer your more specific question: why was Jesus baptized if he was sinless? The answer is that at the time Jesus was baptized he was not sinless and didn't claim to be. Per Mark 10:18:

Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

He was just another sinner like everyone else, and he was baptized to get cleansed as a follower of John the Baptist.

aa5874 · 06-30-2013, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallhall

What purpose would be given to explain baptism of Jesus?

Not sure why or how the question suddenly struck my ignorant mind. But now I simply struggle to let it go.
Was the divine born in sin? could he be reborn, if not cleansed from his former presence? Does something about the situation even make sense?

Without going to far out on a limb, I am reminded of the painting The Virgin by Da Vinci. If considering linguistics and theory of reference and name, one could almost speculate in the two being aspects of the same. Both being function with reference to each other names.

I struggle with how baptism in literal terms could in any way make sense, without doing so purely on faith. So hopefully someone can add the obvious I fail to see.

I will answer your more specific question: why was Jesus baptized if he was sinless? The answer is that at the time Jesus was baptized he was not sinless and didn't claim to be. Per Mark 10:18:

Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

He was just another sinner like everyone else, and he was baptized to get cleansed as a follower of John the Baptist.

The Jesus story did NOT claim Jesus was a sinner nor did he repent of any sins when he was baptized.

We have the story in front of us.

When Jesus was baptized a Holy Ghost bird descended upon him and there was a voice from heaven identifying Jesus as God's Beloved Son.

The Baptism of Jesus had nothing whastsoever to do with sins.

Huon · 06-30-2013, 07:12 AM

The Baptism of Jesus had nothing whastsoever to do with sins.

The problem was : How can we pick the followers of JtB, and his good reputation ?

JoeWallack · 06-30-2013, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I will answer your more specific question: why was Jesus baptized if he was sinless? The answer is that at the time Jesus was baptized he was not sinless and didn't claim to be. Per Mark 10:18:

Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

He was just another sinner like everyone else, and he was baptized to get cleansed as a follower of John the Baptist.

JW:
"The answer is". You keep trying to proof-text Literary Criticism as support for historicity. But in order to conclude history for a supposed event from 2,000 years ago you have to have Source Criticism. Just looking at Literary Criticism of Jesus' supposed Baptism tests high for Fiction.

There's logic to pointing out that per "Mark" Jesus was like everyone else before he received (the) Christ (this also explains the la-la explanation that most will not recognize the return of Christ (false Christs), because it's the Spirit that returns, Jesus already went back to Galilee like he said. The Spirit could go into anyone now, except aa because even Jesus now has him on ignore).

There's more logic though to Jesus not being baptized by John. It's called statistics. Seems like quite a coincidence that in Jesus' short career he just happens to be baptized by the only prominent baptizer identified in Josephus, a likely source for "Mark". Does "Mark" lack credibility? Does Literary Criticism of "Mark" show contrivance? Did the Early Church lack Criticism skills? Statistically, most 1st century Jews were not baptized by John, Jesus and John were probably not in the same area and probably did not have their careers intersect.

None of this proves that Jesus was not baptized by John. That would take the same type of Source Criticism. It does create doubt though.

Joseph

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06-29-2013, 07:28 PM	#11
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	I thought ritual washing was a Jewish tradition. To me a baptism in water is obviously symbolic a spiritual cleansing or change. it is ot the act, it is what the ritual represents.

06-29-2013, 07:50 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The issue is - did Jesus need to be cleansed or purified? In Mark, the baptism is used as a device to show the Holy Spirit descending onto or into Jesus (depending on the translation.) Other presumably later gospel writers who thought that Jesus was perfect from birth (if not before) realized the logical problem with such a baptism.

06-29-2013, 08:22 PM	#13
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	I read somewhere that in the past that in ancient tines it was not uncommon to spread a local prophesy and then fulfill it. In the Jewish tradition there was the prophesy of a messiah or at least an interpretation of such. John prophesied someone would come, someone does come, and John baptizes him prophet to prophet giving JC authority of the scriptures. Looking at the gospels as an action adventure story of the period which I do, it made sense to the overall plot. JC is both divine and human submitting to human baptism. There are probably a number of possible spins from supernatural to worldly. Looking at it from the Jewish and Roman regional politics o the times, John would have had a following as did JC. Baptism by John may have been public showing of unity. Basic human group politics has not changed much. I do not think need is the right question, it is how the baptism of JC fits into the overall story and times. John apparently was already baptizing people.

06-30-2013, 07:12 AM	#19
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The Baptism of Jesus had nothing whastsoever to do with sins. The problem was : How can we pick the followers of JtB, and his good reputation ?

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