Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Davka · 06-27-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Christianity isn't a Jewish religion.

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

J-D · 06-27-2013, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Jews in general were not happy with the Pharisees. They were factually part of the corrupt government.

What's the evidence for that conclusion?

Davka · 06-27-2013, 08:37 PM

n/m

outhouse · 06-27-2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Jews in general were not happy with the Pharisees. They were factually part of the corrupt government.

What's the evidence for that conclusion?

You got me on that, I didn't describe it well enough, nor provide detail. As a generalization I am wrong. Thanks for catching that.

Im trying to find my source that the Pharisees were using Roman muscle to take tithes. I know I read from a credible scholar about this.

Sucks because were left to trust Josephus on his description of these sects

They were part of the government though, even if more theological then political, they were still a powerful group in the temple. And the temple was viewed as corrupt.

J-D · 06-27-2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Jews in general were not happy with the Pharisees. They were factually part of the corrupt government.

What's the evidence for that conclusion?

You got me on that, I didn't describe it well enough, nor provide detail. As a generalization I am wrong. Thanks for catching that.

Im trying to find my source that the Pharisees were using Roman muscle to take tithes. I know I read from a credible scholar about this.

Sucks because were left to trust Josephus on his description of these sects

They were part of the government though, even if more theological then political, they were still a powerful group in the temple. And the temple was viewed as corrupt.

I have a clear recollection of reading in The Nazarene Gospel Restored by Robert Graves and Joshua Podro that the Temple hierarchy was decried as avaricious and oppressive, with citations from contemporary Jewish sources. But it's also my recollection, from that and other sources on Jewish history that I admit I can't cite, that the Temple hierarchy were Sadducees, enemies of the Pharisees.

outhouse · 06-27-2013, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

You got me on that, I didn't describe it well enough, nor provide detail. As a generalization I am wrong. Thanks for catching that.

Im trying to find my source that the Pharisees were using Roman muscle to take tithes. I know I read from a credible scholar about this.

Sucks because were left to trust Josephus on his description of these sects

They were part of the government though, even if more theological then political, they were still a powerful group in the temple. And the temple was viewed as corrupt.

I have a clear recollection of reading in The Nazarene Gospel Restored by Robert Graves and Joshua Podro that the Temple hierarchy was decried as avaricious and oppressive, with citations from contemporary Jewish sources. But it's also my recollection, from that and other sources on Jewish history that I admit I can't cite, that the Temple hierarchy were Sadducees, enemies of the Pharisees.

They were in a political power struggle no doubt.

I know things changed a bit when Herod placed a new Pharisee in power that stirred up the Sadducees.

Still trying to find my source on how corrupt they were, and if the give a date other then second temple during Jesus time.

outhouse · 06-27-2013, 10:10 PM

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/pharise2.htm

This is very old but very in depth description of the different Jewish sects including the Pharisees, and detailed differences between the Sadducees.

Didn't help my case,. but its good info on this topic.

Clivedurdle · 06-28-2013, 06:11 AM

Britannica had an article about the Pharisees - I posted it on BCH but Britannica seems to have removed it, that argued the Pharisees were the good guys, anti-slavery, anti legalism, pro spirit of the law and asking what is just!

The article above is typical apologist stuff.

The attacks in the Gospels on Pharisees are very interesting because they are lumping together very different groups.

This one has been edited and no longer references slavery.

Quote:

The Pharisees (Hebrew: Perushim) emerged as a distinct group shortly after the Maccabaean revolt, around 165–160 bc; they were, it is generally believed, spiritual descendants of the Hasideans. The Pharisees emerged as a party of laymen and scribes in contradistinction to the Sadducees, i.e., the party of the high priesthood that had traditionally provided the sole leadership of the Jewish people. The basic difference that led to the split between the Pharisees and the Sadducees lay in their respective attitudes toward the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) and the problem of finding in it answers to questions and bases for decisions about contemporary legal and religious matters arising under circumstances far different from those of the time of Moses. In their response to this problem, the Sadducees, on the one hand, refused to accept any precept as binding unless it was based directly on the Torah, i.e., the Written Law. The Pharisees, on the other hand, believed that the Law that God gave to Moses was twofold, consisting of the Written Law and the Oral Law, i.e., the teachings of the prophets and the oral traditions of the Jewish people. Whereas the priestly Sadducees taught that the written Torah was the only source of revelation, the Pharisees admitted the principle of evolution in the Law; men must use their reason in interpreting the Torah and applying it to contemporary problems. Rather than blindly follow the letter of the Law even if it conflicted with reason or conscience, the Pharisees harmonized the teachings of the Torah with their own ideas or found their own ideas suggested or implied in it. They interpreted the Law according to its spirit; when in the course of time a law had been outgrown or superseded by changing conditions, they gave it a new and more acceptable meaning, seeking scriptural support for their actions through a ramified system of hermeneutics. It was due to this progressive tendency of the Pharisees that their interpretation of the Torah continued to develop and has remained a living force in Judaism.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...55129/Pharisee

James The Least · 06-28-2013, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

"They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long..."
is probably lifted from Josephus or some other lost source. It certainly was not written by a Jew intimately involved with Pharisees, as our scholars love to fantasize.

You haven't spent much time around Jews, have you?

If you go to Israel today, you will find these self-same complaints being lodged by Jews against the ultra-orthodox, who all too often use their supposed piety as a shield for very impious lives.

Ah, so according to you, nothing's changed in 20 centuries ... and Christian Gentiles' hatred of Jews during that entire time was 100% justified. "The Jews" really were just a bunch of hypocrites who deserved to have their religion stolen by righteous gentiles. Got it.

James The Least · 06-28-2013, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Christianity isn't a Jewish religion.

Only someone who was not intimately familiar with both Judaism and Christianity would make such an absurd statement.

Please name for me all of the ethnically Jewish bishops, priests, and popes in the Christian religion from 70 to 2013.

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06-27-2013, 08:37 PM	#483
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	n/m

06-27-2013, 10:10 PM	#487
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/pharise2.htm This is very old but very in depth description of the different Jewish sects including the Pharisees, and detailed differences between the Sadducees. Didn't help my case,. but its good info on this topic.

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