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Old 10-04-2013, 04:41 AM   #11
stephan huller
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Irenaeus wasn't any bishop of Lyons. Where's the evidence? Eusebius's voice.
Irenaeus spent all his time in Rome. Photius speaks of "lectures" Hippolytus heard by Irenaeus. Where?
Moscow Manuscript of Martyrdom of Polycarp. Where was Irenaeus?
Irenaeus contended against Florinus of Rome where?
Irenaeus invented a Roman succession list where?
Irenaeus says there are many Christians here at the Imperial court where?
Irenaeus says the true Exodus is now where?

Rome
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:21 AM   #12
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Personally, I'm related to my mother through my father, but it's legal/kosher.

The female argument is interesting, it recalls Richard Elliot Friedman's argument in Who Wrote the Bible? (or via: amazon.co.uk) that the author of the Binding_of_Isaac is (was?) a woman (in King David's court no less).

I haven't seen much respect paid to his contention, but I guess it is plausible.

Books of J

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(Incidentally one of Bloom's more striking theses is that the J writer was most likely a woman. In The Hidden Book in the Bible Friedman chides Bloom for stealing this idea from an earlier work of his, Who Wrote the Bible?, where Friedman himself suggested the possibility that a woman wrote the J text.)
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:35 AM   #13
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I would take it a step further and identify Irenaeus with Marcia the concubine of Commodus. But I don't have any solid evidence. It just solves the age old problem of explaining who this person was at Rome that had the ear of Victor, that wasn't a bishop, had such an interest in women, and managed to establish a whole new canon c. 180 - 192. I just don't have any solid evidence for the identification, just a suspicion.

But why does everyone listen to Irenaeus? If he was just some guy why listen to this guy who is so pro-Roman when I live in Cleveland? Why not make my town the center of Christianity?

The incredibly rapid manner that Irenaeus's texts were brought in the form of a scroll (not a codex) to Egypt. Clearly being placed in a library.

I can't explain the name other than the eirene associated with the Commodian period in the Church (cf. Abericius inscription and Lightfoot's identification of the 'peace' referenced there with Commodus).

If Irenaeus = Marcia then Hippolytus, Irenaeus's beloved disciple is explained because Marcia was celebrated as Hippolyta, the Queen of the Amazons
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:16 AM   #14
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A digression into personal bickering has been split and locked.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:50 AM   #15
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Thank you.

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A digression into personal bickering has been split and locked.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:52 AM   #16
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Thank you. But you should note that my posting on the matter of Irenaeus was made before things deteriorated when I was the subject of an argumentum ad hominem attack by Mr. Huller.

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A digression into personal bickering has been split and locked.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:37 PM   #17
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There is at least one other possibility:
That possibility is orthogonal and consistent with any of the three "trilemma" options I gave.

The fourth option would be something like Irenaeus did not exist.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:36 PM   #18
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Be careful of the Trilemma here. There is at least one other possibility:

(4) Argue that the writings ascribed to Irenaeus were actually authored by someone else.
which is consistent with the proposition that
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The fourth option would be something like Irenaeus did not exist.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:05 PM   #19
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But the question has to arise - what do we know about Irenaeus to contradict? As far as I can see - outside of Eusebius - there is only:

1. the reference in the Philosophumena to the 'blessed Irenaeus' twice I think
2. Cyprian and Tertullian's use of Irenaeus probably from the public library in Carthage
3. the tradition that Hypolytus was a disciple
4. the letter to Victor
5. his opposition to Florinus of Rome
6. his interest in Roman episcopal succession
7. his reporting on events in Lugdunum and Vienne (twice) but I take these two to be two different reports of the same persecution in 177 CE
8. Cyril of Jerusalem's allusion to the "Prescriptionem" of Irenaeus which I take to be preserved in Tertullian's Latin translation
9. the Martyrdom of Polycarp's reference to him being at Rome (Moscow)
10. his own statement in the fragments that he knew Polycarp when he was young

Am I missing anything? Maybe Hall's identification of Irenaeus as Praxeas in the treatise of Tertullian by the same name.
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