Duvduv

I have to laugh at the last postings. Gentlemen, it is clear you are not familiar at all with the organization of Jewish society in history, even in the last few centuries, or the relationship between the Jewish public and these major figures.

Sarpedon

Oh? Are you saying they were out performing archaeological digs, making all kinds of discoveries, and refining their histories based on that, instead of sitting around comparing scraps of fourth hand 'documents?'

semiopen

I had no idea that Trotsky had a Herem imposed on him, so at least I've learned something.

Why don't you explain where the misunderstandings are? My guess is it's because you can't, similar to your bizarre reply to the North Africa digression.

The issues surrounding Rabbinic Authority are extremely well studied, but I haven't seen a single thing about it that you've intelligently discussed.

outhouse

more like 70'th hands

Duvduv

Unfortunately, Semiopen, as is increasingly the case, I cannot follow you and what you are trying to say.

Cheerful Charlie

The exodus involves about 1 1/2 million people according to Numbers 2. Thy supposedly invade Palestine and then, 2 1/2 million people immediately exit the archaeological record. No they HAVE to leave obvious traces. Remember, Exodus tells us they outnumbered the Egyptians, the most poplous nation of the late bronze age, rwo to one. They leave no cities, towns, villages, farms, wells, houses, pottery, kilns, bones and middens, no graves. These things do not just disappear not even over 2500 years.

And all you have is a very lame rhetorical question? That doesn't work does it? No professional Near East archaeologist, posed this question will have any answer than to tell us that the exodus tall tale hasn't any truth in it, and this question I pose demonstrates that fact. Israel/Judea are not big areas of land. It would be impossible to overlook the archaeological evidence of a sudden influx of 2.5 millions of invaders into late bronze age Palestine as per Exodus, Joshua, Numbers et al

Now, you have no reasonable explanation for this, and it is obvious you will, never, ever agree that all of this does not work, no matter how obvious it is that this does not work. But this is indeed another good argument against considering the OT exodus story might possibly be true, to pose to other apologists.

Yes 2.5 million people allegedly invade Israel/Judea and leave no trace of the vast numbers, the Lying OT claims invaded the area.

Your nonsense offers nothing but tripe, and bad reasoning based on the magic word interpretation. The facts are there are no traces of 38 years at Kadesh Barnea, which rationally and factually there MUST be if Exodus is in any way true, but then, as I just realized, it gets worse for Exodus tall tales. And every atheist here who considers that for 10 seconds will realize, I am right. 2 1/2 million people do not invade a small portion of the world and then utterly disappear archaeologically speaking, without a trace.

Cheerful Charlie

Tristan Scott

I think it is most likely that the writers of Genesis and Exodus were just re-writing the local mythologies, customizing them to fit their dogma-making the stories that the people of the area were familiar with fit into their religion.

That was obviously the case with the flood story. With it we have real evidence in the form of the Gilgamesh, written 1500 years before Genesis was written-the stories are nearly identical.

There is no record in Egypt that would fit the Exodus story, however the story of Akhenaten, Pharoah (Amenhotep IV) married to Nefertiti, and promoter of a monotheistic religion worshipping the god Aten, does raise some interest. There are some scholars who have speculated that the Moses figure may have been a follower of Akhenaten who fled Egypt after the death of Akhenaten, who's successor Tutankhamun expunged the religion. The timing would have been about right.

Cheerful Charlie

The problem with that speculation is that the Egyptiians intensely believed in an afterlife, but the early Israelites did not, even in the time of Jesus, the Sadducees did not believe iin an afterlife because it was not to be found in the Torah. the Leyden papysuses, written late in the reign of Rameses II had a number of hymns to a monotheistic god who was seen as the one true God. All the old Gods were merly aspects of the one God. Interesting trial balloons by the Amun priesthood of that time.
It is also interesting that exodus tells us the Israeiltes had forgotten their god and worshipped the Egyptian Gods. If so, they would know about the concept of eternal life after death but did not complain th Moses and God about no afterlife offered to them in the new religion. The El myth cycle was the source of early israelite's idea of god and also had no concept of an afterlife.

Cheerful Charlie

Duvduv

How could you possibly lay claim to demanding proof without even laying out the criteria that would satisfy you of the existence of that Exodus? And howwould you know which proof would be universally accepted leading the whole world to become Orthodox Jews? And how could you think that you already know on what basis to make such demands merely based on a limited amount of information from the Torah text by itself?!
Do you rely on the same criteria for judging other ancient events as I asked in my original posting? And if a person doesn't believe the Torah is true, than what does he care what it says?
Do I care what the Bhagavad Gita says about the life of Krishna or what the Pali sutras say about Buddha? They aren't true as far as I am concerned, so what do I care what they claim?

Duvduv

By the way, it is untrue that the Saduccees didn't believe in an afterlife. They simply believed life here did not lead to a bodily resurrection, but that life kept continuing elsewhere, and that one's actions here had no effect there.