Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 07-18-2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Reza Aslan essay at the Council of Foreign Relations

Commences ....

Quote:

The first century was an era of apocalyptic expectation among the Jews of Palestine, the Roman designation for the vast tract of land encompassing modern day Israel/Palestine as well as large parts of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Countless prophets, preachers, and messiahs tramped through the Holy Land delivering messages of God's imminent judgment.

In the 1st century this region was not referred to as "The Holy Land" rather it was a backwater of the Roman Empire. It commenced to be referred to as "The Holy Land" only in the 4th century when the first pilgrims (Bullneck's relatives) decided to visit it. As such Reza Aslan seems to be indulging in anachronism.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Brendan Rizzo · 07-19-2013, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

I heard this show today as well. I was struck by Aslan saying that not only did the writer(s) of the "Roman census" story (which places Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, making him messiah-eligible) - that not only did the writer(s) know this story was untrue, but that their readers would have known it as well. Since the Romans never actually conducted such a census (in which they required people to return to their place of birth to be counted), the readers would have understood it to be factually incorrect.

Aslan went on to say that ancient people did not consider *any* of the stories about gods to be factual accounts, but rather stories which were designed to illustrate some important truth. It was only with the advent of the Enlightenment, and the emerging consensus that anything that is "true" can be verified scientifically, that Theists began to claim that the Bible is literal historical fact.

Great interview, worth a listen.

Hold on, if religious writings were always considered metaphorical before the eighteenth century, then how do you explain the fact that medieval Christians tortured and killed those who pointed this out?

mountainman · 07-19-2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan Rizzo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

I heard this show today as well. I was struck by Aslan saying that not only did the writer(s) of the "Roman census" story (which places Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, making him messiah-eligible) - that not only did the writer(s) know this story was untrue, but that their readers would have known it as well. Since the Romans never actually conducted such a census (in which they required people to return to their place of birth to be counted), the readers would have understood it to be factually incorrect.

Aslan went on to say that ancient people did not consider *any* of the stories about gods to be factual accounts, but rather stories which were designed to illustrate some important truth. It was only with the advent of the Enlightenment, and the emerging consensus that anything that is "true" can be verified scientifically, that Theists began to claim that the Bible is literal historical fact.

Great interview, worth a listen.

Hold on, if religious writings were always considered metaphorical before the eighteenth century, then how do you explain the fact that medieval Christians tortured and killed those who pointed this out?

treatment of heretics

Quote:

With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[15] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[15]

In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[21]

WIKI and Reza Aslan are misinformed. The first attested religious persecution is documented by Ammianus c.359 CE in Skythopolis where "numbers without end" were dragged from Alexandria and Antioch, and tortured and/or executed. The rulers (Christian Emperors) considered the monotheistic state religions useful and to speak against their authority (whether or not the holy writ was a factual account) was treated as an attack on their majesty. Later the Pope got involved in the same practice.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

outhouse · 07-19-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

WIKI and Reza Aslan are misinformed.

Yet you have no credible explanation that would overturn this.

What about Nero?

mountainman · 07-19-2013, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

WIKI and Reza Aslan are misinformed.

Yet you have no credible explanation that would overturn this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[21]

WIKI is misinformed. The first attested religious persecution is documented by Ammianus c.359 CE in Skythopolis where "numbers without end" were dragged from Alexandria and Antioch, and tortured and/or executed.

Quote:

Aslan went on to say that ancient people did not consider *any* of the stories about gods to be factual accounts, but rather stories which were designed to illustrate some important truth. It was only with the advent of the Enlightenment, and the emerging consensus that anything that is "true" can be verified scientifically, that Theists began to claim that the Bible is literal historical fact.

Aslan is misinformed. The rulers (Christian Emperors) considered the monotheistic state religions useful and to speak against their authority (whether or not the holy writ was a factual account) was treated as an attack on their majesty. Later the Pope got involved in the same practice.

Quote:

What about Nero?

What about Nero?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Brendan Rizzo · 07-19-2013, 05:07 PM

outhouse is quite clearly asking how one would explain away Nero's persecution of Christians, which is attested by non-Christian sources. I thought that was obvious.

aa5874 · 07-19-2013, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan Rizzo

outhouse is quite clearly asking how one would explain away Nero's persecution of Christians, which is attested by non-Christian sources. I thought that was obvious.

Actually, non-christian sources do not attest the persecution of any Jesus cult in the 1st century.

Tacitus Annals with Christus is an obvious blatant forgery which was carried out sometime after the END of the 4th century.

Please identify any non-christian source that claimed Nero persecuted a cult whose leader was Jesus of Nazareth.

Toto · 07-22-2013, 01:36 PM

More by Reza Aslan

CNN religion blog - Losing Christ and finding Jesus

Transcript of the Daily Show interview

Another transcript

neilgodfrey · 07-22-2013, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

More by Reza Aslan

CNN religion blog - Losing Christ and finding Jesus

Hoo boy! Now I understand why Aslan and his book are apparently so big in America.

Muslim [think evil incarnate] converted by the light shining in America's soul.

This also explains the affection for the political program of Jesus -- which is nothing less than the same as America's -- to sacrifice itself for the cause of good and enlightenment in the world.

Imagine a Christian writing about his conversion to Islam and justifying a new book about Muhammad in similar terms.

Minimalist · 07-22-2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

slan starts from the idea that the only sure fact about Jesus is that he was crucified,

What is so "factual" about that?

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07-19-2013, 05:07 PM	#16
Brendan Rizzo Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 111	outhouse is quite clearly asking how one would explain away Nero's persecution of Christians, which is attested by non-Christian sources. I thought that was obvious.

07-22-2013, 01:36 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	More by Reza Aslan CNN religion blog - Losing Christ and finding Jesus Transcript of the Daily Show interview Another transcript

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