aa5874

I am extremely happy that you mentioned gJohn 11 because it specifically shows that the Chief Priests and Pharisees went to counsel to put Jesus to Death at gJohn 11.53

In fact, it is claimed in gJohn 11.56-57 the Chief Priests and Pharisees were looking for Jesus in the Temple and commanded that if anyone knew where he was that it should be revealed so that they might take him..

John 11:53 KJV----Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death .

John 11:57 KJV----Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were , he should shew it, that they might take him.

The Gospels are fundamentally anti-Jewish.

Even in gJohn it is claimed the Jews were of their Father the Devil who was a murderer.

dog-on

I suppose you could look at the formation of the LDS religion and their particular belief system versus some of the popular ideas of the day, which happened recently enough in history to have a good amount of primary data still available.

And I would not argue that every religion ever created was created by a human, though I am not sure what that gets us with regards to the question at hand other than stating the obvious.

Robert Tulip

Yes, as a ransom to stop the Romans destroying them.

Which is worse, demanding or paying a ransom?

The Jews sacrificed Christ as a ransom to Rome. This myth entered theology with the idea that God sacrificed Christ as a ransom paid to the devil. The Jews were the type for God, and Rome was the type for Satan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement says

J-D

The LDS religion was created by Joseph Smith, not by things in the air.

If it were as obvious as you think that every religion was started by a human founder, people wouldn't be offering explanations of how Christianity started in which no human founder plays a part.

Iskander

God tricked the devil? It sounds like a Gnostic parody written by Constantine.

dog-on

The LDS religion was started by Joseph Smith who started started it using a combination of existing concepts, many of which were in the popular psyche of the time (in the air...).


I am unaware of anyone who would think such a thing as "no human founder played a part" unless apart from those that believe Christianity was started by the Ghost of JC on the road to Damascus, or some such nonsense.

Perhaps you are conflating, "no human founder" with "started specifically by Jesus of Nazareth".

TedM

Ok, thanks. I wonder if Jesus of the Gospels can be described as 'meek'. He did teach "blessed are the meek", supposedly, although in other places he clearly was sending strong messages. I wonder too if there could be something to the gospel accounts indicating that his popularity may have caused jealousy leading to his arrest. If so, he could have been on the 'meek' side and still have been arrested, with the temple incident being just the final catalyst to ignite the jealousy (traditional view). Just wondering if there is good reason to reject Paul's comment. Why would he say something like that if it Jesus in reality had been an outgoing rebel-rouser? If he was trying to be considered as worthy of also being called an apostle, he surely would not have mis-represented their human Jesus.

aa5874

Your claim makes no practical sense whatsoever. God TRICKED the Devil!!!???

The KILLING of Jesus in the Bible happened during the time of Pilate and it is claimed TWO THIEVES were crucified him.

Mark 15:27 KJV After the crucifixion of the Jesus and the TWO THIEVES in the Bible thousands of Jews were KILLED and SOLD as Slaves and the Temple destroyed..

The Jews were under the control of the Romans for HUNDREDS of years after the supposed crucifixion of Jesus and the TWO THIEVES.

Please, examine the writings of Philo, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

There is no claim whatsoever that there was a Jesus Christ of Nazareth who was crucified with TWO THIEVES as a ransom for the Devil or anyone else.

About c 70 CE, The Jewish Temple and Jerusalem was made desolate and about 135 CE the same thing was repeated.

Please, what ransom "God/devil trick" are you talking about?

Thousands of Jews were KILLED and cheaply Sold as Slaves in the 1st and 2nd century.

Wars of the Jews 6.5 1.Wars of the Jews 6.8 Your Ransom/God/Devil/Trick is total absurdity and is contrary to logics, reason and history.

outhouse

Your welcome.


I doubt it



Authors taught that, we don't know if he did.

Remember, they did not want to be seen like the rebellious Jews, they were playing to a Roman audience and did not want to look like a movement that would end up being trouble makers.



Unknown.

There are a lot of Judas traditions, and the gospels contradict themselves.

One says he sold him out, another Jesus told him to go do what he had to.

They also state he was very afraid knowing they would catch up for him.

Either way, I don't think much of that is reliable if any, other then he was arrested for causing trouble.



The temple was crooked as hell. The temple coins had a pagan deity Melqart on them. So lets run with passive, but loses his cool when he a blasphemous coins in gods house. I don't see Jealousy being a part of his arrest.

Human emotions implied in a situation like this with known violence, wouldn't we look for reasons why? There were plenty without going off the deep end.



Paul wasn't there, Paul had no knowledge of the real events, these legends turned into mythology and it took some time to hit papyrus.


Paul was a headhunter who murdered these leaders of this movement, he didn't have the full story we do today. He only focused on the death and resurrection and spiritual side, because he never knew the man himself, nor cared about the living man, like the real apostles. He desperately wanted to be a apostle and focused on theology.

Paul also had to play one side of the road, remember there were a divisions in Judaism, and Jesus wasn't known to be for Hellenism, just strict traditional Judaism and Paul was all Hellenism. Paul would have been Jesus mortal enemy for a while, and Paul wanted Paul's movement to succeed, Jesus movement wasn't going anywhere as a failed dead messiah.

Last, we don't know how much a rebel rouser he really was. He stayed in small Jewish villages trying to survive. His message there could have been many things and the end result would still be the same. We can only be sure that the temple murdered him and they wanted peace more then anything to keep their jobs. Had a full blown riot or rebellion happened Pilate and Caiaphas heads would be on a platter.


What would he know? the Galileans tucked tail and ran back to Galilee in my opinion. Paul only knew the mythology that grew with his martyrdom.

What needs to be understood, is that while Jesus was alive he was a nobody. he starts some trouble in the Temple with hundreds of thousands of people in attendance, where his death ended up being martyred, and soon after resurrection stories popped up for unknown reasons.

The message spread through the Diaspora, and Hellenistic Proselytes started using the mythology and creating mythology and theology. Paul did not spread the message to the Diaspora. He tells us there were other teachers like him already. he was only taking care of a few pater familias/houses he started and had disagreements with some over his radical messages and how he thought they were wrong in certain beliefs.

Paul did not know the real Jesus nor the legends behind the living man, only the mythology that grew after his death.

Toto

For god, read the Father. For devil, read the demiurge, i.e., the god of this world, i.e., the incompetent bungler who made a mess of this world, but was in control.

It's no parody - it's how the gnostics really looked at things.