FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Philosophy & Religious Studies > History of Abrahamic Religions & Related Texts
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 01:23 AM

Notices

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-25-2013, 12:13 AM   #121
aa5874
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCHindley View Post
....Can't help the fact that the way the Romans seem to have depicted him (an illegitimate royal claimant amenable to execution by crucifixion) corresponds with the way Josephus depicts anti-Roman rebels....
It is most remarkable how people here simply ignore the actual statements by the Jesus cult writers about NT Jesus in order to invent their own.

For hundreds of years the Jesus cult claimed that it was the Jews that KILLED Jesus--NOT the Romans.

1. Aristides' Apology
Quote:
he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven.
2. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
Quote:
"So that you ought rather to desist from the love of strife, and repent before the great day of judgment come, wherein all those of your tribes who have pierced this Christ shall mourn as I have shown has been declared by the Scriptures.
3. Hippolytus' Treatise Against the Jews
Quote:
But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? ..... it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor
4. Tertullian's Answer to the Jews
Quote:
And then shall they “learn to know Him whom they pierced, and shall beat their breasts tribe by tribe;”
5. Origen's Against Celsus 47
Quote:
Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ...
It is most alarming how the evidence is ignored that for hundreds of years it was TAUGHT in the Churches that the JEWS killed Jesus the Son of God.

Please, what is so difficult to understand?? The Jews killed Jesus and their Temple and the Holy City was made desolate according to the Jesus cult.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 09-07-2013, 01:49 PM   #122
Iskander
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
It neither sleeps or is deceived.

Thanks for asking Iskander.










εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Mine sleeps and smiles.
Libyan women look divine when sheltered from the Mohamedan moon!



A painting (Herbert James Draper, 1909) of Lamia, the queen of Libya who became a daemon according to Greek mythology
Iskander is offline  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #123
Iskander
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,619
Default



Blue tympanum- with symbols of sacrifice centre-patera right-knife left-ox skull

Painted figures of Lares against a white background- they carry (as often) a drinking horn (rhyton) and a wine-bucket (situla)

The genius dressed in a toga, and with veiled head, holds a patera (chalice) in his right hand and an incense box in his left –as if offering sacrifice

A serpent-moving towards offerings of fruit on a small altar (far right).Serpents are a common motif in lararia, probably symbolizing the earth’s fertility and so the prosperity of the household

Religions of Rome. Volume 2 : A Sourcebook
Mary Beard, John North and Simon Price
Cambridge University Press 1998
ISBN 9780521456463
Page 193


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient...llery_08.shtml

The roman genius and the Greek daimon are both personal guardians.
Iskander is offline  
Old 09-11-2013, 08:06 AM   #124
Littlejohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 708
Default

Quote:

"..Aslan starts from the idea that the only sure fact about Jesus is that he was crucified, and that therefore he must have been a revolutionary zealot..."
.
"sure fact"??!... Foolish!!..

Even the Koran teaches that Jesus was NOT crucified... In fact, he died stoned by the Jews around the year 72, two years after the end of the first Jewish War (66-70).

Even Basilides (see Irenaeus) and ALL the Gnostics (over 70 sects) reject the crucifixion of Jesus, as reported by heresiologist fathers... The Talmud is an authoritative confirmation of everything ...

.
Littlejohn is offline  
Old 09-11-2013, 08:24 AM   #125
Duvduv
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 4,095
Default

Sorry, the Talmud does not confirm anything about the NT Jesus at all. Nor do any midrashim. They speak only of a deceiver (NOT messianic figure) in the first century BCE named Yeshu son of Pandera (not as found in the Toldoth stories having the name specifically of Joseph, which I personally do not believe were written by Jews at all based on the content and context).

For that matter nothing in any of those traditional Jewish texts makes even the slightest hint or mention of people such as "Josephus", suicide at Massada, one John the Baptist or others who people would assume should find some mention of relevance for Jews. The Talmud makes specific references to Samaritans and Sadducees but not to other sects one would imagine they would mention, such as "Jewish Christians," Essenes, etc. (or a so-called "fourth philosophy" of the Jews).
Nor is there any mention of some high grade student of Rabban Gamliei named Saul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlejohn View Post
Quote:

"..Aslan starts from the idea that the only sure fact about Jesus is that he was crucified, and that therefore he must have been a revolutionary zealot..."
.
"sure fact"??!... Foolish!!..

Even the Koran teaches that Jesus was NOT crucified... In fact, he died stoned by the Jews around the year 72, two years after the end of the first Jewish War (66-70).

Even Basilides (see Irenaeus) and ALL the Gnostics (over 70 sects) reject the crucifixion of Jesus, as reported by heresiologist fathers... The Talmud is an authoritative confirmation of everything ...

.
Duvduv is offline  
Old 09-11-2013, 09:04 AM   #126
outhouse
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlejohn View Post
Even the Koran teaches that Jesus was NOT crucified... In fact, he died stoned by the Jews around the year 72, two years after the end of the first Jewish War (66-70).


.
Yes!

So we should fall back to sources hundreds of years later to look for more historical accuracy :constern02:
outhouse is offline  
Old 09-13-2013, 04:42 PM   #127
James The Least
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 393
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskander View Post


Blue tympanum- with symbols of sacrifice centre-patera right-knife left-ox skull

Painted figures of Lares against a white background- they carry (as often) a drinking horn (rhyton) and a wine-bucket (situla)

The genius dressed in a toga, and with veiled head, holds a patera (chalice) in his right hand and an incense box in his left –as if offering sacrifice

A serpent-moving towards offerings of fruit on a small altar (far right).Serpents are a common motif in lararia, probably symbolizing the earth’s fertility and so the prosperity of the household

Religions of Rome. Volume 2 : A Sourcebook
Mary Beard, John North and Simon Price
Cambridge University Press 1998
ISBN 9780521456463
Page 193


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient...llery_08.shtml

The roman genius and the Greek daimon are both personal guardians.
That's brilliant. First time I've seen it -- so redolent of mystery religions.
James The Least is offline  
Old 09-15-2013, 12:25 PM   #128
metacristi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 649
Default

Seems to me rather an attempt to improve the imagine of islam in the West (via hints that Jesus himself held violence in high respect and that Jews were very intolerant with foreigners) than an honest pursuit of truth.

It may be that he truly believes in this conjecture via Islamic biases (I heard more or less the same twisted interpretation of 'I have not come to bring peace but a sword' and so on at muslims I debated) but fact is that he totally fails.

Among others the use of the criterions of authenticity is utterly wrong, a new hint that it is rather the misuse of the criterions which produce the plethora of many competing Jesuses. In my view we deal with just another 'Da Vinci code' where the author forgot to add the word 'historical fiction' in the description of his book.

In his place I would pay much more attention to what happens in Islamic studies, the muslim 'scholars' are still at the level of the Middle Ages, there is still a 'mountain to climb'. Aslan would really deserve to be famous only if he finally brought the critical historical method to Islamic studies (what about a book like 'The created quran. Rational criticism is applicable to the holy book').

Finally just imagine what would happen if a Christian having the same expertise as Aslan hinted in a book (written in an academic language) that the prophet of islam was a desert bandit who realized at some point that only a policy of gaining 'vital space' abroad could save his political construction...
metacristi is offline  
Old 09-30-2013, 11:30 AM   #129
Toto
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Reza Aslan schools us in the “myths” about Jesus

Quote:
Aslan, as you probably know, has made a cottage industry of reassuring the faithful that a) Islam isn’t such a bad religion after all, and that b) Jesus was in many ways a regular guy, a “man of his time.” (I’m clearly in the wrong business, as there seems to be an insatiable and lucrative market for this kind of stuff.)

In his latest book, Zealot, Aslan rewrites the Jesus story based, as far as I can see, completely on a revisitionist interpretation of scripture—that is, on how he interprets what really happened to Jesus (he assumes, incontrovertibly, that Jesus was a historical person). There isn’t, of course, any extra-biblical information about Jesus that has any credibility, so I see Aslan’s tale as simply cherry-picked exegesis. As you’ll see in the piece below, Aslan’s “myths” about Jesus include mundane historical matters, but completely neglect important Christian issues like the virgin birth, the Resurrection, and Jesus’s miracles.

...
Toto is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:36 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.