Originally Posted by Hegesippus . "James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place ; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek, Bulwark of the people' and 'Justice,' in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him. Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him Quote: 'What is the gate of Jesus? And he replied that he was the Saviour. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said Quote: 'We entreat thee, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in thee. For we bear thee witness, as do all the people, that thou art just, and dost not respect persons. Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in thee. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position thou mayest be clearly seen, and that thy words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, are come together on account of the Passover.' The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: Quote: 'Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led, astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.' And he [James] answered with a loud voice Quote: 'Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'[1] And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said 'Hosanna to the Son of David', these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another Quote: 'We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.' And they cried out, saying Quote: 'Oh! oh! the just man is also in error.' And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah Quote: 'Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings [Isaiah 3:10].' So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other 'Let us stone James the Just.' And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said Quote: 'I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying 'Cease, what do ye? The just one prayeth for you.' And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them."

"These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus, that is called the Christ. For the Jews slew him, although he was a most just man."

"But the emperor, when he learned of the death of Festus, sent Albinus to be procurator of Judea. But the younger Ananus, who, as we have already said, had obtained the high priesthood, was of an exceedingly bold and reckless disposition. He belonged, moreover, to the sect of the Sadducees, who are the most cruel of all the Jews in the execution of judgment, as we have already shown. Ananus, therefore, being of this character, and supposing that he had a favorable opportunity on account of the fact that Festus was dead, and Albinus was still on the way, called together the Sanhedrim, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, James by name, together with some others, and accused them of violating the law, and condemned them to be stoned. But those in the city who seemed most moderate and skilled in the law were very angry at this, and sent secretly to the king, requesting him to order Ananus to cease such proceedings. For he had not done right even this first time. And certain of them also went to meet Albinus, who was journeying from Alexandria, and reminded him that it was not lawful for Ananus to summon the Sanhedrim without his knowledge. And Albinus, being persuaded by their representations, wrote in anger to Ananus, threatening him with punishment. And the king, Agrippa, in consequence, deprived him, of the high priesthood, which he had held three months, and appointed Jesus, the son of Damnaeus."

Originally Posted by TedM

Why can't you follow your own postings? You said Christianity was created by Gentiles in order to explain the reason why the Jewish Temple fell. This obviously is not the reason why it was created because that is a ridiculous motivation since 1. there was no need for Gentiles to explain why the Temple fell -- it was an act of war. 2. even if there was a need there is no reason for them to explain it in terms of the Jewish Messiah.

Your claims are clearly empty of logic and intelligence...that is, unless you can address this issue of Gentile motivation in a way that I haven't thought of that actually makes sense. Feel free to try. ps. please just focus on what I'm saying and try not to get distracted by what Josephus did or didn't say.

Originally Posted by TedM

Your response is totally inadequate. And you are making wrong assumptions about what I know, as you always do, aa. I know that Gentile Christians wrote about Christianity. But, that doesn't help your case in the slightest. As to my argument -- try again. I'll help:

Gentiles had no good reason to concoct a story to explain to themselves or the Jews why the Gentiles destroyed their temple. Do you need to concoct a religion to explain why you cross the street? You do it for reasons that you already know. In the same way, Gentiles destroyed the temple for obvious reasons that they knew.


I know that it may or may not have been there. Who would have motivation to make it up? If it was Jewish Christians who venerated James, doesn't that destroy your argument?



This is Josephus' take on it. You haven't shown that the Jews accepted it. In any case, if you persist in saying that Gentiles needed to explain to Jews why they destroyed their Temple (laughable), then wouldn't it have been a hell of a lot easier to just point to this above quote, instead of creating dozens and dozens of letters in order to concoct an entirely new religion based on a Jewish Messiah when there is no good motivation to even do so in the first place? It's mind-boggling to me that anyone can take such an idea seriously.

Originally Posted by jdboy

When you win the war that's what you do and in this case the Romans won and they wrote about it. The Romans took control of Jewish lit. Why is that mind boggling? Atwill says the Romans were vain. Ok?

Originally Posted by outhouse

Which to date, doesn't have a single thing to do with the origins of the movement that would become Christianity.

Let Ted hunt, he is on the right trail.

Originally Posted by jdboy

What trail?

Originally Posted by outhouse

AA's possible shortcomings due to a poor hypothesis


Not only that, what evidence you have of Romans taking over Jewish lit?

Originally Posted by Toto

I see your confusion now. Grog said that scholars almost universally reject the idea that Josephus referred to Jesus as "the Christ" even if they think there is an authentic core to the TF - since this is un-Joesphan language and thought.

You misread this as claiming that scholars rejected the entire passage.

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your posts are just absurdities and presumptions without a shred of support from antiquity.


Why don't you just read the writings of the GENTILES and stop your noise?

You constantly expose your lack of knowledge of the writings of GENTILES.

Hippolytus, a Gentile, gave the REASON for the Fall of the Temple.

Hippolytus' Treatise Against the Jews Please, show me where Josephus wrote that the destruction of the Temple was because of James?

You seem not to understand that Gentiles Concocted stories about Jesus and James.